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Castillo or Navarro, or something else?
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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 Castillo or Navarro, or something else?
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Anyone here ever have the opportunity to compare the work of Salvador Castillo to that of Francisco Navarro? I have that buying itch again, and am thinking of ordering something. I'll be out a few hundred more if I go with another Castillo, over the Navarro Reyes, but I sure like the Castillo I already own...
With no experience with the Navarro Reyes, it is a little risky, but I can return it to his dealer if not happy... I also think Salvador's guitars will hold value better than Navarro's, but what do I know... In the end its about the sound. I am also considering a few other makers, but these are the 2 that are in my sights in the here and now.
I have been emailing with Salvador, and communication is a little rocky at best. Because my dumb white ass took French in high school and not Spanish, my skill with the language is rather halted. I have been using freetranslation.com and things had been going pretty well. However my last message I asked him about adding Planetary pegs to the guitar, and asked him if he would cut a soundport. He didn't have much to say except for that he only had ebony pegs right now, and as for the soundport, all was lost in the translation... Somehow he thought I was talking about the bridge materials.
A part of me thinks that if he has never cut a soundport, I don't know that I would want my guitar to be the first, but maybe that's just foolish thinking. Never the les, I'm interested in hearing some thoughts from you guys. I'm done with buying guitars from Spain for now, and am most interested in Mexican builders for some strange reason.
First I need to decide the maker to go with, then blanca or negra! I'm pretty blanca heavy, and don't own a single negra, so maybe its about time to change that... Or maybe not! I sure love a good blanca! Or negra. Heck, I love them all. Guitars and ladies, its a contest to see which will cause my downfall first...
Anyone had the chance to compare guitars from the best of the best Paracho makers?
Thanks,
Shawn Brock
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Date Nov. 17 2011 21:46:23
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RTC
Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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I own a SC Blanca, and I love the guitar. I have also looked into purchasing another Blanca (I want a peg head) and have spoken to both Salvador and Francisco about it and of course it's hard to decide. I read a post by Mr. Blackshear where he complemented Francisco Reyes Model as a heck of a buy (use the search function and read his comments, you will find it very interesting).
Please take some time and look into some of the Luthiers that regularly participate in this forum, you will be surprise what they have to offer.
We are fortunate to have access to such awsome guitar makers that love their art (Andy, Stephen, Peter, Tom and Anders to name a few), and we are curse in having to pick just one.
Good luck with your decision, I am sure you will enjoy your new guitar!
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Date Nov. 18 2011 0:26:38
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britguy
Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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Not sure this answers your questions, but:
I have two Castillo negras; Braz. Rosewood and a Granadillo peghead. They both have an incredible sound, especially when played hard. I don't know how anyone could expect a better-sounding guitar than these two - at any price. I have a third on order for end-of-year delivery. I love the traditional look, feel and sound of these two Castillos.
An experienced Toronto-based l professional ( who studied with Paco Pena) compared my two Castillo's to much higher-priced Spanish guitars, and felt they were actually better than many he had played!
Sorry I have no personal experience with Navarro guitars, but it's my understanding that not all his instruments are built entirely by him. Salvador, I understand, works entirely alone. . .
Good luck with your research.
_____________________________
Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
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Date Nov. 18 2011 13:59:07
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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@RTC: I hear ya Man... I have read Tom's comments about Navarro's Reyes, and they are truly impressive. I think Navarro has been somewhat over looked by the flamenco community and Salvador has been welcomed with open arms. I have read quite a few accounts of Francisco's guitars cracking, and even being delivered with cracks, but have yet to hear anyone report a crack in a Castillo. God! I hope I'm not the first. So many great builders are out there, and that makes it hard...
@kudo : How do you compare your Castillo blanca to the negra as far as sound and brightness? Also, how far apart are the numbers? I have number 239, a cedar top blanca, and as I said, love it. I have had only 1 opportunity to try a Castillo negra, and it was number 141. A great guitar, the fact is that the shop which had it also had an old Conde and a 73 Ramirez 1A, and the Castillo stomped those 2 with ease. I never got to compare my blanca to that guitar, but am sure that my blanca has a little more volume, but maybe isn't quite as bright. Its that old argument of which has the most volume, blanca or negra... Some makers seem to do better with one or the other, but can't build both blancas and negras to be equal but different. From what I can tell, Salvador builds both great blancas and negras, but as I said, I don't have enough experience with his negras yet.
@britguy : Yes Sir! As I stated above, I have seen a Castillo lay a flat out whipping on some great names which were 4 times the price. What's the guitar you have on order with him? And did you ask for anything different than your other 2 negras?
@gounaro : Agree! It seems that used Navarro's tend to hang around a little longer, although I haven't seen anyone trying to sell a used Navarro Reyes. I hope to buy something which I'll love so much that I won't feel the itch to sell it, but I don't know that we ever get that happy. I also love the sound of Anders work, and someday will try to pick something up from him.
Thanks for all of your thoughts guys, I'm still not closer to a decision... I do feel a slight lean in the direction of another Castillo, but am not ready to commit just yet... Keep on talking to me here!
Shawn Brock
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Date Nov. 18 2011 16:19:09
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3432
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to britguy)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: britguy
Sorry I have no personal experience with Navarro guitars, but it's my understanding that not all his instruments are built entirely by him. Salvador, I understand, works entirely alone. . .
Good luck with your research.
The last time I was in Paracho was in December 2006/January 2007. I visited both Navarro and Castillo, among others. Their shops are near one another on the main drag, the Avenida Independencia.
The only luthier I visited in Paracho who worked entirely alone was Abel Garcia. I ordered a classical from him which I have been quite satisfied with. It's a world class instrument, in accordance with Garcia's repuation.
At Navarro's shop were two teenagers, whom Navarro introduced as his sons, and one or two other workers. There were other workers at Castillo's shop as well. But I can't say what tasks these other workers performed.
Over a period of 15 or 20 years I did form an idea of the division of labor in another Mexican guitar workshop, that of Juan Pimentel Ramirez in Mexico City. I bought a number of instruments from Pimentel for friends and acquaintances in the USA.
I believe all the three or four regular workers in Pimentel's shop were relatives of his. Pimentel himself did all the critical work, perhaps all the work entirely, on the best quality instruments, except for finishing. For lacquer finish, even on the first quality instruments, other workers did the spraying and rubbing out. Mexicans bought very few French polished instruments. I never bought any, but I think Pimentel did any French polishing that may have been required. I remember watching him touch up the polish on a Santos Hernandez blanca brought into the shop for some slight repair and touch up.
On the cheaper instruments, the other workers did some of the work, but all was under the immediate supervision of Pimentel himself, who was never more than a few feet away from any work that went on.
I suspect that it is much the same in both Navarro's and Castillo's shops. Certainly all the work is under the immediate supervision of the maestro, who is never more than a few feet away from any of the other workers. I would expect that any critical work, perhaps all of the work on the best instruments would be done by the boss.
My impression of both Navarro's and Castillo's business on my last visit, and stretching back many years, was that the great bulk of their sales were in the less expensive instruments. These are very well made, and great value for money. None of the shops I visited had one of their best quality instruments to show, except for Arturo Huipe. I bought a French polished cedar/cocobolo classical from him for $1,800 that I consider very good value for the money.
I encountered an American pro from Chicago who was in Paracho to pick up a blanca from Castillo. He said he was going to have electronics installed in it for gigging. I assumed at the time it was Castillo's best quality instrument. I played it a bit. I thought it was a good instrument, but not as good as either my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca or my '82 Arcangel Fernandez blanca. But the Castillo was brand new, and we were playing in the showroom of the shop, with a wide open door onto the street. And you can only compare guitars accurately if you have them in the same room at the same time.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 18 2011 19:54:32
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beno
Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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quote:
Also I'd like to know how long have you to wait for a Castillo (waiting list)?
I ordered on the 4th of august, and recieved the 22th of sept. so the process could take some 7-8 weeks (calculated with 1-2 week minus for the delivery). Let's say He works on 3-4 guitars at the same time. That mean let's say 25-26 or so guitar a year. I think He also uses parts that had been previously put together like top with rosette ready to go or carved headstock etc.
With all that been said I also think that there are some guys helping Him, but as far as it brings this result, and the maestro supervises everything, and gives His name to it,who cares?
quote:
For example I contacted Graciliano Perez ( Cordoba ) and he has something like a 10 months waiting list atm!
I simply don't judge on that, as it doesn't mean anything.
By the way, I think I've seen Eduardo Trassiera playing one.
so, I don't say it's the perfect guitar for everybody, I just say it's pefect one for me!
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Date Nov. 18 2011 22:25:15
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britguy
Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
So Yours 332 is from august 2010. According to your estimation now he's something around 360.
I bet you that he's more than 400 now! (just my intuition, maybe I'm wrong) uote:"
Not that it's really imortant, but my first Castillo - (BRW negra)built in December 2010 is #345. My second (Granadillo peghead), built in May 2011 is #363, and from the photos of the new one being built now it will be # 385. Due for completion in late December. I believe his normal lead time is about 7-8 weeks, plus shipping.
To answer a previous question on this thread:
I ordered #3 because #2 (Granadillo peghead) has a magnificent flamenco sound, but I never play for dance. I play mostly toque libre and some classical. So I asked Salvador if he could build an identical Granadillo with regular machine tuners and slightly more sustain in the trebles. He advised he could make a minor adjustment in the placement of the face struts to increase treble sustain, and sent me a photo of the exact adjoining sister piece of the #3 back. The photos of the backs look almost exacly alike. And if #3 sounds as good as #2 and #1 I'll be more than happy.
_____________________________
Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
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Date Nov. 19 2011 13:12:11
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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@ RNJ: This is interesting information. You are the first that I have heard report that Salvador is making inexpensive or student instruments. I have only known 3 others who have visited his shop, and they reported that from time to time he had others working for him. His father was for sure working in the shop as well. There is an interview with him in a local news paper, and he used the term, "my family's workshop." I also understand that he orders neck blanks and pre slotted fingerboards. According to my source, that is as far as he goes with pre-fabricated materials. Again, the others never reported on a student line of instruments by Salvador. If such guitars were being made at his shop, I guess that could explain the high numbers that are turned out. I should email him and ask about the student instruments, would like to get 1 for my son.
Speaking of the numbers:
I also know a few other things. I know that Salvador works some long hours. A friend who has visited him 4/5 times talked about Salvador working until as late as 9:00 at night. This friend is an American luthier of note, and gets over $6000 each for his instruments. He makes 1 instrument a month, and that is it. He also does a lot of repairs and set-ups during a months time. At this point he has built over 200 instruments, and has reported to me that he could in fact build a guitar in a week if he buckled down, and this would be also while he continued his repairs and set-ups. This is not taking time for finishing though... My experience with various other American luthiers has been about the same...
Another thing that this luthier has reported to me about Salvador is the fact that he works smart. He said that Salvador would spend days where he would only cut tops and so on. He said that Salvador would polish guitars 2/3 at a time, and he would have a 3/ 5 day period of the month where that's all he would do. While waiting for the finish to cure, he would be starting on more instruments. After the finish was cured he states that Salvador would apply the tap, string it up, and go through with final fret dressing, intonating, and some fine voicing/ sanding of braces.
When I asked my luthier friend as to why he didn't operate this way and crank out more instruments he said, "I don't have to. I like to work when I want to work. If that means I don't work on a guitar for a few days that's fine. I can afford to take days off, or work short days with the prices I get for a guitar."
If a person only wants to make 12 or so guitars a year, I for one see nothing wrong with that, but that don't mean that a person couldn't build more if he wanted to.
I'm not saying that the makers of Paracho are the best in the world with the best prices... Its obvious to see that a few have world class reputations, and there are good reasons for that. I have played plenty of Condes which weren't worth the pouter it would take to blow them to hell, but they have that $10000 and up price tag. I have owned more than 100 guitars in my life, and can except what's good and what is bad. More than once in my life I have spent $5000 or more for a custom built instrument only to be disappointed. Some of it comes down to who you would trust. Is a guy who has made 50 guitars and getting $6000 each for them better than a guy who has made 400 guitars for $2000 each? It would depend on the guys I guess... Never the less I have seen that a lot of musicians play the $$$ and not the guitar. They think that if something has that big price tag that it must be better. That's why people in this country are still paying $5000 or more for Gibson mandolins. I mean, come on! Why would you pay that price for something that was cut out on a CNC machine?
In the end its up to a person where they want to spend their money I guess. Some will buy a Chinese made Conde for $3000, others will buy a Chinese made Kenny Hill New World for $2000, some will pay $2500 for a Paracho guitar, some will buy a great American or Spanish guitar for $6000, and some will buy a horrible American or Spanish guitar for the same $6000. I can tell you this, I would rather buy 3 Castillos for $7500, than any 1 guitar for the same price, and I have played them all!
Shawn Brock
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Date Nov. 19 2011 16:55:35
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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quote:
I have played plenty of Condes which weren't worth the pouter it would take to blow them to hell, but they have that $10000 and up price tag. I have owned more than 100 guitars in my life, and can except what's good and what is bad.
Man, here we do not discuss guitars in general but the specific flamenco guitar. As you maybe now, they have special characteristics and are made to be played in a certain way to get the best of 'em.
That said, I must admit that I don't know you. I visited your webpage and listened some of the samples, to get some info about your skills...
I recently read a topic about the pulsation and there was this reflection with witch I agree completely. It's from Anders.
quote:
from Anders Eliasson :
One of the problems with the internet info you get about good guitars is that the info comes from people who knows very little about guitars, hence the enourmous amount of info about sound and very little about playability. There are lots of "clever" persons writing about how good this and that guitar sounds without being able to really test it and play it with a good strong flamenco technique. If you dont have that techique, you wont be able to test the guitar fully. Its like testing a formula 1 car under speed limitations. Everyone with money can buy a good guitar, pluck the strings and write a raving review on the internet. If you do so many times some people will consider you to know a lot about good guitars, but the only info you get is a personal comparision on how good guitars sound when plucked.
I hope you understand what I mean with "plucking". thats something that has very little to do with playing flamenco. Flamencos dont pluck strings.
Again I don't know you, but unless you PROVE me that you possess the skills needed to enjoy flamenco guitars of the level you denigrates, then I find it difficult to trust your words.
The truth I imagine you trying all these flamenco guitars...with a PICK ! 
- - - - -
quote:
and has reported to me that he could in fact build a guitar in a week if he buckled down, and this would be also while he continued his repairs and set-ups. This is not taking time for finishing though... My experience with various other American luthiers has been about the same...
Well I'm not luthier and I have no clue about the "real" time of a making. So I can't comment on this.
But if Salvador could built on a 8 days rate, then that's impressive coz it's not what I understand reading topics here.
BTW I have to say that this just confort my feelings, witch are that I'm pretty suspicious when it comes to trust a luthier about his own work. There is so much difference. One says dark while the other says white, make me feel unconfident with their speech. Also coz I don't know nothing on the matter, so this adds to the mystery of the raw material price...
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Nov. 20 2011 9:35:53
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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@ mezzo : Kiss my ass man. I suppose you know everything about the guitar hmm? Let us bow to you. By the way, what's your web page, and how many Grammy winning records have you played on? I'm at 7 and counting, not a 1 is flamenco though... Can I play flamenco, I sure as **** can, how bout you? Do I play flamenco for a living, no... Not many people do. Play with a pick, nope... Your wrong again. The display of this kind of attitude is why so many people of value don't stick with the foro. Now lets get into another fakeo flamenco discussion... Where people talk about how artists like Jesse Cook suck. And lets here the the skills of these players, and see who's the better, the **** talkers, or Cook. In short, I don't need your opinion on anything. I for one am here to share information, not run people down. If that's not you, then so be it. But at least I have the ability to play for a living, sell enough records to pay off my house, and do it all through music. Come on in and tell us what you do, share your playing, and if you want to go flamenco to flamenco, we can do that too. Will be glad to post something which will shut your mouth.
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Date Nov. 20 2011 17:40:55
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kudo
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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hey Shawn,
my blanca is#330 . want to know about it? read the review I submitted on Castillo's site:
http://www.guitarrascastillo.com/Salvador_Castillo/Testimonials.html
I heard that the best negras he ever makes are the Granadillo negras.
by the way, ( you dont know me, but Im a very honest person, like it or not) I think Mezzo plays good flamenco and knows a lot more about flamenco than you, even though he is not a professional or makes a living out of it. (he doesnt need to be, to be a good flamenco)
just because you might be kicking ass in other kinds of music, "Jazz my ass" or whatever you do "blues/ greens/light/heavy metal my penis", it does not mean you can easily become good at flamenco and it doesnt mean you are an expert in guitars (100+ guitars dont count) , why? because im pretty sure , you suck at flamenco.
UNLESS You can prove me and Mezzo wrong with your flamenco playing. Im really pissed that you were talking to Mezzo like that 
_____________________________
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Date Nov. 20 2011 19:52:18
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Castillo or Navarro, or somethin... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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You guys are right... I just suck at flamenco... Your right. I should take the time to prove something to you... Your right, the fact that someone comes out with the information they have means nothing.
Truthfully I'm ashamed that I got involved in this. These posts are to childish for me to be a part of, and I'm the worse of all of you for letting someone's comments drag me into such a bunch of hype. Please except my apologies, and no, I'm not being sarcastic in this paragraph.
You must understand that when you don't know people, you can't just come out and act in such a disrespectful manor. I don't hold any ill regards with any musician, it doesn't matter how good they are. Music is far more than how good someone is. I have watched a few of Mezzo's videos and respect the talent offered. It doesn't matter if he's a "bedroom player" or not. I have no problem standing up and saying the dood has talent! I just didn't appreciate his comments. To come out and tell someone who you don't know, or know anything about that they are full of ****, and don't know anything about flamenco is a little uncalled for. As a 30 year old man I can't believe that I am taking the time to tell other adults this. I see a lot of things on the foro that I think are crap, but I have more respect for people than to ever approach someone like that.
I don't know why my comments were found to be so raw to Mezzo but so be it. I'm guessing that it was the fact that I had some harsh words about Conde. It seems the point in the message was lost. Yes, some Condes are junk to me, but also most of them aren't as we all know. I have been the proud owner of 2 myself, but being that I suck so bad, maybe those Condes did too.
No, I don't play flamenco for a living. I wished that that was possible for me, but it isn't at this time. Maybe someday... I guess if jazz and other music is "****", well, then I play **** for a living... The point is that I have a masters in classical, have been able to study with a few great flamenco players, and know something about it, and all nylon string guitars. You can take that for what its worth, or isn't.
I'm also sorry that what could have been a good thread went into a childish attack on me, and that I was childish enough to respond. Again, I'm sorry about that.
I now plan to leave the foro and won't be back. Its not that someone disagrees with me, or even thinks I'm worthless, its the actions by a few of you members. I have better things to do, and don't want to be a part of disrespectful behaviors among musicians. If people are going to talk loud and proud about how little someone knows, then they better be ready to back it up. I haven't seen a level of talent exhibited here which is beyond greatness, and sure won't waste my time with that.
Good luck to you all in the future, and thanks to so many of you which I have learned from
Take care,
Shawn
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Date Nov. 20 2011 21:50:02
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