Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Negra or classical

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Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Negra ...

Inspired by the blanca/cedar thread I have for you guitar freaks

:

Listen to this video and tell me what you think:
* Is it a spruce or cedar soundboard
* Is it a negra or a classical with a tapplate
* Anyone know the maker

NB: I dont know the answers, but I like the sound of the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 18:20:06

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

It’s a Rameriz classical/negra. Juan Serrano used them along with Manolo Sanlucar. It has a cedar top and was built as a flamenco with a lower bridge and a shallower neck angle. It’s really just a worked over 1A classical.

I had one that I got from one of Juan’s students. Mine had a 664 scale in East Indian. Mine had the regular blue edged 1A label.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 18:38:07

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 18:41:59

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thats a good straight answer Patrick

Do you have any more info. Year, which Ramirez, bracing system?

Thanks
Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 18:43:16

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

It’s a Rameriz classical/negra.

that's why it has reminded me the tyipcal sound of some of my friends's classical ramirez.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 18:58:18

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Not much. Mine was virtually a reworked 1A classical. You could see the neck was flatter and it had a nice low flamenco bridge. I think mine was a 1987 or so, but don’t hold me to it. At that time, Ramirez didn’t build a negra so they just reworked the classical’s. Mine had the same laminated sides as the classical’s.

Don’t know about bracing, but I would bet it was the same as the classical. I got mine from Dimitri that started Flamenco teacher.com. He got it from Eddie Lastra. Eddie was a student of Juan. Juan contacted Ramirez and had them build it for Eddie. Mine sounded almost identical to Manolo’s. The 664 length was just too much for me, but I kind of wish I still had it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 19:04:38

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Do you have any more info. Year, which Ramirez, bracing system?

Anders, I spoke to Amelia Ramirez one time about this type of guitar. Specifically the one Sanlucar played. She said it was their 1a Tradicional model. A classical guitar with cedar top and all they did was install a flamenco bridge on it. She said if you were to order a guitar like this, you would request it to be "flamencada".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 19:22:27

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

"flamencada"

Tom,

I knew they had a name for them, but couldn't remember. Thanks.

Eddie also said they built them with a lower neck angle. Mine looked like it had a shallower angle, but maybe not. Other than the 664, it played nice.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 19:31:11

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 6 2011 19:36:51

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 19:34:16

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ramirez also makes a negra version of their standard 656mm scale blanca. It is braced the same way and can be made with either a spruce or cedar top and either tuning machines or pegs.
A friend of mine has a somewhat unusual cedar top model with pegs that was made in 2001. It does not have the lined sides or the ebony reinforcement in the neck that the "Tradicional" model classical has. A very nice guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 19:44:39

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Ramirez also makes a negra version of their standard 656mm scale blanca. It is braced the same way and can be made with either a spruce or cedar top and either tuning machines or pegs.

Charles,

They do now, but I don't think they built a true negra back in the 80's. You are a better historian on this stuff than I am, so correct me if I am wrong.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 20:15:14

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Patrick,

I'm pretty sure that you're right. I don't recall ever having seen or heard of one but in this business one quickly learns to never say "never". Even now there aren't all that many of them out there.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 20:24:42

Shawn Brock

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I say its a classical with cedar. The basses don't sound flamenco to me, and something about the sustain makes me think cedar. I could be way off base though... It happens from time to time. To me the guitar needs a little boost in the mid range. I was a little reluctant to make the final call that its cedar, because I have played a few cedar flamencos which sounded like spruce. In the end though, I'm saying this is cedar and classical...

Shawn Brock

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 21:42:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

You REALLY like that sound anders???

I first started learning flamenco on a 1971 1A, same guitar pretty much. His bracing has that weird diagonal cross bar. The sound was so bad, and impossible to make good rasgueado and stuff. It was a real struggle learning with that guitar. It was big, and not just scale but the way the neck felt and everything. Oh yuck....I traded it for a Conde blanca in Spain years ago. Night and day totally. When I hear M. Sanlucar, as much as I LOVE his music and playing, that nasally voice or whatever of the guitar in certain registers, Ugh, brings back my frustrated memories. And Juan here playing without a capo....oh man I can almost smell the wood and feel the pain of dealing with that guitar. Not to mention the intonation problems that even Juan is dealing with here. At least Manolo has a low buzzy action which takes out some of the muddiness of the response.

Anyway, sorry to anyone that truly loves these instruments, I am really biased because of my early experience strugging with flamenco techniques on that guitar.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 22:21:54

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ricardo,

Not totally my cup of tea either, but it’s not that bad is it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 22:47:00

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2011 23:14:23

Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Juan Montero Aguilera coral and spruce.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 0:55:52

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I guess its a classical/negra hybrid lol, what else would you call a classical with a lighter lower flamenco bridge and tap plates

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 1:57:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

You REALLY like that sound anders???

Yes, I like the sound in the hands of Juan Serrano. I think it suits his playing. Another thing is that I dont think I would want to play it. I´m a blanca man. The light, punchy midrange guitars with an easy going feel and a medium pulsation is my personal choice of guitar

From the description you guys make of Serranos and Sanlucars guitars, I think its the bracing system where you can buy a plan (Ramirez 1966) I´ve played a Ramirez classical and a copy with that system and its not something I would prefer for flamenco. They were both very stiff and hard to play. Very little fun. The sound was good for classical.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 7:09:02

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick

It’s a Rameriz classical/negra. Juan Serrano used them along with Manolo Sanlucar. It has a cedar top and was built as a flamenco with a lower bridge and a shallower neck angle. It’s really just a worked over 1A classical.

I had one that I got from one of Juan’s students. Mine had a 664 scale in East Indian. Mine had the regular blue edged 1A label.

Victor Monge "Serranito" also used one. I don't know what he's playing now. It shows that you don't need big hands to play a long scale guitar with a wide nut and fat neck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 13:50:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

It shows that you don't need big hands to play a long scale guitar with a wide nut and fat neck.

but it sure helps to be muy macho.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 15:11:54

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Also interesting is Manolo doesn’t seem to be playing his anymore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 15:51:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

but it sure helps to be muy macho.

Not to mention having impeccable technique.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 15:54:18

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

Also interesting is Manolo doesn’t seem to be playing his anymore.

Manolo has gone down the hill. I heard him live a year ago or so and it was horrible.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2011 20:48:55

Ricardo

Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick

Ricardo,

Not totally my cup of tea either, but it’s not that bad is it?

Man, in college when that vid came out I tried to inspire myself to keep working with that guitar. But honestly, this drier version is even worse for me then the slicker studio version. Can't stand that tone sorry....

I love ramirez's book however, and his normal spruce/cypress peg head flamencos sound fine to me. It is these classical 1A's....and not just because they should be for classical music. I much prefer other makes for classical too. For example compaired to german hauser....I mean no comparison.

How about this...like this way better. Manolo on Conde blanca:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2011 20:27:28

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

But wait a minute….I remember several years ago you said Tauromagia was a land-mark, must have CD!

I think it’s pretty much “his” signature tone and works for him. I have a CD (can’t think of the name) that he did with an ultra dry blanca and it sucked big time. It didn’t sound anything like him.

He is playing something different these days, so he must have given up on it as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2011 21:22:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

But wait a minute….I remember several years ago you said Tauromagia was a land-mark, must have CD!

Yeah, well I never needed to admit the thing about the guitar tone. Like I said at first, despite the fact I love his music and playing.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2011 21:44:28

Guest

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

is this the guitar?
noticed Manolo's Negra on the sale list..
https://www.lasonanta.eu/en/guitarras-flamencas/jose-ramirez-1977-flamenco-guitar.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2011 22:22:54

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 0:43:46

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

s this the guitar?
noticed Manolo's Negra on the sale list..
https://www.lasonanta.eu/en/guitarras-flamencas/jose-ramirez-1977-flamenco-guitar.html

Emmm, something’s not right. This may have been “one” of his guitars, but I have my doubt’s this is the one he played all the time. First off, the one he played looks like a dark cedar top, not spruce. For that matter, I have never seen one of these guitar in spruce. The rosette doesn’t look right, but tough to tell. French polish throws me too. I have never seen a French polished Ramirez all though there could have been. The overall look of this guitar is a much lighter tone as well. The 655 scale is an odd ball as well. Pretty much everything in this era was 664.

Maybe Tom from LaFalseta can see what the folks at Ramirez have to say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 2:57:49