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Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
Microphone or pickup for live use?
I'm interested in hearing the thoughts you guys may have as far as pickups or microphones for live use. Off the bat this may seem like a dumb question, but because I'm blind I miss a lot of things in regards to what a lot of flamenco players do for live sound reinforcement. Sometimes the use of a pickup is pretty obvious, because so many don't sound natural at all...
Coming from the world of smooth jazz where the music tends to be pretty high volume, I have been using a Godin solid body Multiac for most live shows. I even use the Roland Guitar Synth some, but that's beside the point. The solid body is no good for a few obvious things like golpe... So given that, I'm looking at other alternatives here.
In the past I owned a Cordoba 55 FCE, and the Fishman Pickup sounded pretty good, and was pretty resistant to feedback. I hated the fact that the guitar had a thin body though. It always seemed like my arm never felt correct when playing it. Though the lack of depth was helpful with preventing feedback. I have been looking at a few of the clip on microphone systems and would be interested in hearing your thoughts. I also thought of something like the LR Bags pickup which sticks to the reverse side of the soundboard.
I'm one of these guys who's always buying or wanting to buy a new guitar, and for that reason among others I don't want to permanently install something in one of my guitars. I would like to use my Castillo more in some of these smaller venues, but don't want to have it drilled out and a jack installed... If I ever wanted to sell it, it could turn some people off, the fact that the guitar had been altered that is.
My experience with some of the clip on microphones back in the day, was they would feedback like crazy! For small small venues I use a Fishman Solo Amp, and it can be a little touchy when it comes to microphones.
So what do you guys think? Am I better off suffering with the Godin in large venues and outfitting some old junker with a pickup for smaller gigs? Or is it possible to use something like the LR Bags, or a small clip on Mic and be able to play the instrument you damn well want to be playing?
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
I'm no techie-whiz when it comes to sound amplification. But, facing the same problems as you are, I bought a clip-on mike from Bruce Bartlett several months ago and it is a wonderfull little tool. Clips on the edge of the soundhole, inside, about the 8 o'clock position. Sounds really great, just like the real guitar sound. And quite inexpensive. Bruce is also a great guy to deal with.
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
It's kinda of a pain in the ass, because you'll end up with 2 wires coming from your guitar, and need 2 inputs..But.
I'm a fan of the Bartlett mic in combination with a contact mic if you really need to cut through. For contact mics, I'm partial to the AKG C411. It's one of those ones you use with a little putty. It sounds a bit artificial, but not "quacky". It's like hearing your guitar through a transistor radio. I know, not a ringing endorsement. But it seems to contain frequencies the mic doesn't, so to use both a blend them, you can get a nice sound that also cuts through without feedback.
However, if that's the goal, you might just consider a contact mic in conjunction with a mic on a stand. Then you won't have 2 cords coming out of your guitar.
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
Thanks all for the recommendations. Think I'll order a Bartlett. I had also considered MiniFlex Microphones, but can't find anyone to share their thoughts about them. Plus they are a little more pricy than Bartlett. Some how some way in the future I hope we will be able to use a great acoustic sound even in the cases of working with drummers! I guess if you used in ear's and made drummers work on electronic kits it would be possible now, but you can't talk about music with most drummers...
Posts: 15854
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
If you are playing with a band, sorry you can't get any better then something like the Godin you are using. If you need golpes, mix in an external mic sound with it. And for external mics, I don't really like clip ons and all that....plus my condes have a brace along the mouth that doesn't allow those to be placed optimally. Anyway, a good ol condensor out front is the best assuming you have a good sound system or PA you are using too.
I got a great sound for proper flamenco guitar with sure beta 87A.....it is really a vocal mic...but because you need to get close to it for it to pick up good, you dont have feedback and bleed issues like with other mics. ONly problem is when playing you have to be careful of your position or the eq changes quick. So I can use that and crank it up to just below feedback and it sounds great and gets pretty loud. But you can't compare to piezo.
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
quote:
MiniFlex Microphones
Had a mini flex installed on my spare guitar. To be truthful I was disappointed with the final result. Ended with the Bartlett clip on and a nuemann Km condensor, but as far as microphones go there are many good choices.
Posts: 2017
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
I was doing a lot of band gigs at one point so I had a Mclish pickup installed in a Conde. Incredible volume, but loss of flamenco tone. So, I'd also mike the guitar, and using a volume pedal, would roll off the pickup when playing rhythm and only add the pickup when playing single string solos lines. This gives a bit of flamenco tone by having at least some sound from the mike even when your soloing, and with the volume pedal, you can add as much volume from the pickup as you need. Also , when your playing rhythm, you've got the good tone from the mike. I've tried various mikes, but the one that gave me the most volume and tone was a rode nt5.
The McLish pickup sounds much better than most, but it still isn't a flamenco tone, and I found that incredibly frustrating. It was always a compromise, and I thought, why on earth do I compromise my tone? I never did that in any other musical situation. When I played electric guitar, no way I'd play with a tone I didn't like. If you love your tone, you simply play better. When I did solo gigs, or played for dance, tone was never an issue-I liked the sound. But somehow to play a flamenco guitar with a group, especially one that includes players who are used to playing with other groups that play at higher volumes, it became a huge issue.
You go see Paco with his group, and of course he sounds incredible and plenty loud enough, but that's different than playing in a club or restaurant. He's in a theatre, and his sidemen's levels are controlled by a sound guy. The guy who seemed to have it licked was Vicente. When I saw him, he played with incredible volume, but his sound guy was pushing his volume to the max, and he created ear busting feedback a few times.
I saw the GK's recently, and they had completely given up any flamenco tone by using pickups. It was sad, because I'd think a group with their resources could do so much better. You listen to their first record, and the guitars have so much flamenco sonnikette, and then in concert today, zero.
I've seen good guitarists using pickups in flamenco shows, and it never sounded right. I get the attraction-less hassle, more mobility, but it's also nice to be able to use a mike for dynamics. I consider a pickup a last resort, although there may be something out there that really works-I just haven't seen or heard it.
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to britguy)
Could you tell me the exact reference as I think there are three or four different models. I may have to order this from the US (which shop) as I can't find it in Europe. I suppose I'll need an amplifier for it with a standard 5.25 jack? (The Spark mini mic for $179?)
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to frhout)
several of us have ordered here in Australia. if you email Bruce he will respond quickly and give info. well he did with us. They also do floor mics for Dancers. the SPARK is mainly for recording...so will feedback easier in a live setting http://www.bartlettmics.com/sparkmic.html the guitar pro needs phantom power. A good mic of it's type to use in Live setting. http://www.bartlettmics.com/guitarmic.html The guitar mic B is battery operated via a belt clip. it can also be hardwired for wireless use. it uses a Standard Guitar Jack. http://www.bartlettmics.com/guitarmicB.html
between the guitar mic and the guitar mic B the difference other than stated above is the Guitar Mic seems to have more output. quite a bit more. I had both but ended up using the B model. The other guitarists i play with use the Guitar Mic. not much difference in the end. Just more gain required. Not a real issue. I kept the B because of he wireless possibility.
ok i've done some work for bruce, not intentional or endorsed just found him helpful over a long distance... , solved some live sound problems for us...All i can say after trying so many of these mics and transducers over a 20 year period these are really a no hassle option. Have their benefits and limitations, But as others have said you can't beat the right microphone for your guitar.
Rode, Octavia, Shure, Sennhieser, Akg, Nuemann, Dpa are all worth a look at....
sometimes when i need to be louder i use the Bartlett in combination with a Microphone...works for me.
Final option i guess i to buy a guitar from a luthier with the system of your choice inside...at least that way the maker is drilling the holes..
quote:
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Send me a set of strings you've been curious about and I will try, break in, evaluate, and return them to you. I offer this for free. This is my gift to the music world. You just pay for strings/shipping.
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to Guest)
Hi AlVal, could you tell me where you put that little box with the Guitar Mic B? With the 9V battery, am I right in saying that you won't need to plug it into an amp if you don't wish to?
RE: Microphone or pickup for live use? (in reply to frhout)
hi frhout i put the box either in my jacket pocket or attatch it to my belt..or belt loops.. yes you do need a standard guitar jack coming from the box into your amplification... the alternative of course is to have a wireless wire plugged into the box which eliminates the cable...but you still have the box as it is attatched to the microphone.... downside of the wireless option is the purchase of a reciever....unless already provided by an in house production company... i've yet to do this though the hardwiring of the unit is easy and inexpensive... hope that helps A
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