question about PdL transcriptions

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a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

question about PdL transcriptions

I've been listening to PdL's La Plazuela (1971, "Recital de Guitarra") also on youtube, with the hope of learning it. So I got a tab/notation transcription of it (1976, published under his name) and discovered that the fingering is not only absolutely impossible, it also isn't written as he played it.

Here's the weird thing. The recording is clearly in the "normal" bulerias key of A phrygian modulating to Am at the end (capo on 2), but the transcription is transposed to a totally different key, which renders the fingering impossible. I'm a good guitarist, and a competent judge of what can and what can't be done on a guitar. And I say this transcription can't be played. By anyone.

Is it possible that this was done with the intent of discouraging people from learning PdL's repertoire? Certainly it would be discouraging to anyone who believed that he actually played it the way it is fingered. Clearly there is no need for PdL to undercut the competition in that way, but flamencos are notoriously protective of their compositions, so I wonder.

Alternatively, PdL might have hired a non-guitarist (say, a pianist) to transcribe it from a recording to regular notation, and they did so without taking the capo into account, and then a classical guitarist wrote out the tab from the notation, doing the best job they could to finger it as written without a capo. That would make sense, as the tablature is fingered to play the notes in the key of B on open strings that PdL played using A phrygian hand positions with capo on second fret.

Bottom line, neither version is useable. The tablature is nonsensical, and when I read notation, I instinctively read .as though it were written for guitar without capo. I can't transpose from B to A in my head.

So -- does anybody know of a version of Plazuela that is actually written the way he plays it? In fact, does anyone here actually play Plazuela? I think, with some work, it is within my technical abilities, but it would be a lot of work to learn it from just listening to the recording.

Help!

Tony

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 2:56:06

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

Is it possible that this was done with the intent of discouraging people from learning PdL's repertoire?

That seems highly unlikely. The more plausible explanation is that it's just a very, very bad transcription. Sadly, it seems that in flamenco guitar there are a significant number of transcriptions which are either problematic, poorly written, or worse. And then there's all of the great music which hasn't been transcribed. I suspect it's symptomatic of the lack of institutional structure and organization characteristic of flamenco, in contrast to, say, classical guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 9:24:54

gaash

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 29 2011

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

This might be a bit of a pain but why don't you figure out the correct fingering from the transcription you have... I assume the notes are right but fingering is just crazy? I've foun this happens a lot with transcriptions created from MIDIs where you have scales that could be arranged 3 notes per string arranged as like 1 note per string with all sorts of open notes etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:15:29

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

Is that the blue book, with a playable version of Entre dos aguas?

Around 1990 I actually took the trouble to type both Plazuela and the fandango Aires choqueros into Finale and transpose them down a tone. The results are reasonably sensible, although of course there’s no fingering. I’ll post them if you like.

I’d go with the incompetence theory, although I must admit the other one did occur to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 16:13:41

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

Bingo. Probably Paco's publisher hired a pianist to do the transcription. I probably have that old book (white cover, blue print?) I think it was called Le Mejor de Paco or something. There are at least a few older transcriptions out there with this issue.
There are surely better transcriptions out there(the new Paco books?), but if you have amazing slow downer, and the standard notation, that might be enough, and could ultimately give you a better result, as you'll be more exposed to the small details on the recording that can't be represented in tab or notation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

Alternatively, PdL might have hired a non-guitarist (say, a pianist) to transcribe it from a recording to regular notation, and they did so without taking the capo into accountTony [/size]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 17:08:52

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

I’ve uploaded versions of Plazuela and Aires Choqueros, transposed into their proper keys, to Tabs.

Hope this helps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 22:42:44

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

Hey everyone - Faucher has a tab of PdL's La Plazuela. I guess it would be easier to buy his tab rather than go through all the trouble of weird transcriptions and key changes...

Just a thought.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 23:21:12

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to rombsix)

I got the book for review (Guitar International, October 1983). I felt obliged to check if those pieces were in fact accurate when they were transposed down.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 23:35:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to a_arnold)

This has been discussed much in the past.

Jose Torregrosa transcribed all that paco material back in the day, using his piano obviously, so Paco could retain (c) rights in additions to (p) rights. That is, written score protection along with sound recording protection. I also have a similar score for some Camaron and Paco material. Jose was co producer and because he wrote those notes down, he also snuck in a little composer credit for himself. If you understand how that works, it was pretty lame and sneaky of him, although he certainly helped paco and family a lot. He also arranged the strings for the orchestra parts on Duende Flamenco.

Anyway, since that was done, the PUBLISHER has an obligation to print that (c) material if they want to keep it in their catalogue. This same practice happens with all pop music, all arrangements are made by a hired pianist then they print the music in various forms to keep it up and keep making $ for the publisher, WHO OWNS THE (c).

So whenever one of those books gets sold, PDL and Torregrossa both make some pennies.

If you want accurate transcriptions, the best are done by Alain Faucher at Affedis who deals black market-under the table style and keeps all the money for himself. I am sure he has that buleria. You can decide what you want to do with this info.

In addition, Paco and his brother Ramon reclaimed some rights from the publishers to make new MORE accurate transcriptions for legal sale, SPECIFICALLY to force Alain Faucher to go underground with his advertising. I recommend Fantasia Flamenca and Fuente y Caudal. the first book in the series is not so accurate saddly, and the last one (Almoraima) I have not seen.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2011 14:24:51

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to Ricardo)

Good information, Ricardo.

As to S. Torregrosa putting his name to the composing rights: Juan Serrano told me (some time ago, 1987, so it may have changed since) that to claim 100% copyright as a composer in Spain, you have to be a member of the Sociedad de Autores; and to be a member you have to pass a written examination in music theory. Otherwise you can only claim 50%. That’s why you see Torregrosa’s name. You can see the same sort of thing on some of Mario Escudero’s published music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2011 15:46:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Juan Serrano told me (some time ago, 1987, so it may have changed since) that to claim 100% copyright as a composer in Spain, you have to be a member of the Sociedad de Autores;

Interesting. I am only familiar with US copyright law. Really what happens is the PUBLISHER owns the copyright, and they pay the composers, arrangers, piano transcribers, etc, percentages based on what their contracts were originally. For example maybe PDL gets 5% as co composer, Torregrossa the other 5%, but then he gets extra 10% or a flat rate for transcribing etc. In the end, the one that profits the most from a printed music score being sold, is the publisher.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2011 16:08:21

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Juan Serrano told me (some time ago, 1987, so it may have changed since) that to claim 100% copyright as a composer in Spain, you have to be a member of the Sociedad de Autores; and to be a member you have to pass a written examination in music theory. Otherwise you can only claim 50%. That’s why you see Torregrosa’s name.

Are you implying that PDL wouldn't have been able to pass the written examination in music theory, or something else?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2011 8:14:35

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

Are you implying that PDL wouldn't have been able to pass the written examination in music theory, or something else?

I have no direct information on the subject. I do remember that he himself reported difficulty figuring out both Falla’s music, and the Concierto de Aranjuez.

And again, if he was able to past the exam, why not join the Sociedad, and collect all the royalties?

I’m pretty sure Mario Escudero couldn’t have passed it, even though he could read slowly and played a few classical pieces, such as Recuerdos.

Sabas famously said that written music looked to him like chicken scratches.

Juan Serrano, on the other hand, became a Professor of Music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2011 0:13:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question about PdL transcriptions (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Juan Serrano, on the other hand, became a Professor of Music.

Thanks to honorary doctorate I think. But music theory exam is BS...it is about terminology and Bach Chorale's. If you did not do that you won't pass. But ear training is usually part of it...if Paco had an oral ear test he would kick butt and also in rhythmic dictation....but again if he has to write it down it could be the problem.

You guys ever see Amadeus? The part where the musicians and student emporor sight read a new composition and mozart hears the guy play that simple tune like 5 times or so then has it memorized. Well for the layman movie goer it implies he is a genius as though no musician can do it, only him. But when I went to spain the first time and saw the ENTIRE class play back some hard stuff (not simple salieri) from ONE HEARING only, I realized it is all about COMPAS. That is why Mozart got it so fast and changed it....cuz he understands PHRASING and rhythm so it is easier to learn and memorize. When a flamenco player first counts off or does a compas reference, then demos a strum or melody the compas of it is meant to be learned instantly, like talking to someone.....funny how studying theory and rules and terms on paper can interfere with that simple concept of learning and understanding music.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2011 4:23:04