RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail.

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Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to ecross)

I started with Graf-Martinez before getting a proper teacher and it nearly put me off flamenco guitar. I think his exercise pieces are mostly dull and uninspired, so is his playing. From a didactic standpoint, maybe it's not that bad. When I went through JM material I would constantly find myself saying "this sounds cool, I want to learn how to play it", with Graf-Martinez, that never happened at all.

Since flamenco guitar is so hard to get a grasp on especially in the beginning I find it extremely important that you work with material that you like from a musical perspective, and which inspires you, so that you don't get tired too quickly. I never got that feeling from the Graf-Martinez books, but maybe it's just me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2011 17:20:37

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Munin)

I'm not a Juan hater, but I wouldn't advise even a beginner to use his stuff. There has always been a lag between what beginners in Spain study and what people in far flung locations had access to. Thanks to the net, that is no longer the case.
As someone who spent a lot of time studying old school flamenco, if I was starting today, I'd want to start with stuff that is more relevent today. Check the link and look at what this little kid is playing.
Not that por medio is dead by any means, but hell, it's these type of kids that are going to determine the future direction of flamenco IMO. I would be astounded if they ever cracked a JM book.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2011 18:12:58

GerryR

Posts: 23
Joined: Jul. 18 2011

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Munin)

One of the issues is that everyone responds a little differently to teaching techniques, and having a variety to choose from is great. I have methods books from a variety of instructors, and I have found that what one person cannot explain to my liking, someone else does fine, so I hop from one to another when something isn't really clear. I must say, though, that Juan Martin's is my go-to instruction material. This is recreational for me and the traditional materials appeal to me; some of the "modern" flamenco that I have heard seems more of a display of guitar fretboard prowess rather than anything musical, but maybe I just don't know what I am supposed to be hearing. JMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2011 18:25:19

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

As someone who spent a lot of time studying old school flamenco, if I was starting today, I'd want to start with stuff that is more relevent today.

Understandable, certainly; but it seems to me a question of learning to walk before you can run. If you can’t play the early stuff, you certainly can’t play Gerardo and the rest. Likewise you need to learn to keep in compás with easy stuff, so it becomes automatic, before you start on all the syncopations.

One year when I went to Paco Peña’s course in Córdoba, we got a bloke who was a session guitarist -- he had a Paco de Lucía locket around his neck. He played a bunch of Lucía’s pieces, but he obviously didn’t understand what he was doing, because the accentuation was all wrong. When PP asked him to play two straight compases of bulerías, he couldn’t.

Yes, there are these nine-year-old Spanish whizz-kids, but they’ve grown up knowing it all their lives.

Plus when you’re beginning, there’s a nasty period when the novelty’s worn off, but you can’t yet play anything interesting. That period is going to be a lot shorter if you try to learn Perico del Lunar’s falsetas than if you try Chicuelo’s. When you’ve mastered that, you can move on.

Look at the portraits Pablo Picasso did when he was fourteen.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2011 18:57:48

gaash

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 29 2011

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Munin)

I think it completely depends on the goals of the guitarist where to focus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2011 20:11:21

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

He is an amazing flamenco considering his age. I'll agree that it's not remotely possible for a newbie to play compas like this kid before learning to change from Bb to A on 3 and 10. But plenty of guitarists spend many years polishing really old material, some of which requires way more technique than the boy has, which may not really prepare them to do what this kid is doing so well.

Speaking strickly from a guitaristic point of view, what he is playing is more relevent today than much of what you'd find in a tutorial that is based on fifty-seventy year old stuff, in particular some solos of the period. All the kid is doing is playing compas, so if a guitarist with a bit of experience and compas learned what he was doing, he would be taking a huge step towards an understanding of bulerias compas as it is played today-much more so than the guy who tries to play a Paco solo without understanding the compas. I don't think you need to work your way through JM's, Gerharts, and Granados books before having a shot at what's happening in that vid. But that is a judgement call, and subject to individual interest and ability.

It's true that people who have been into flamenco for years have the benefit of hindsight, and while I think everyone should study the old masters before learning Gerardo's modern style material, if a little kid is playing bulerias compas in B and sounding great, why ignore that by working exclusively with old materials? I think that many guitarists, especially those with a little bit of experience in flamenco technique and not new to the guitar, could manage to work out what the kid is playing, and would be much better served by it than learning a "piece" by JM. Just my opinion, and I could be wrong in many cases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

As someone who spent a lot of time studying old school flamenco, if I was starting today, I'd want to start with stuff that is more relevent today.

Understandable, certainly; but it seems to me a question of learning to walk before you can run. If you can’t play the early stuff, you certainly can’t play Gerardo and the rest. Likewise you need to learn to keep in compás with easy stuff, so it becomes automatic, before you start on all the syncopations.

One year when I went to Paco Peña’s course in Córdoba, we got a bloke who was a session guitarist -- he had a Paco de Lucía locket around his neck. He played a bunch of Lucía’s pieces, but he obviously didn’t understand what he was doing, because the accentuation was all wrong. When PP asked him to play two straight compases of bulerías, he couldn’t.

Yes, there are these nine-year-old Spanish whizz-kids, but they’ve grown up knowing it all their lives.

Plus when you’re beginning, there’s a nasty period when the novelty’s worn off, but you can’t yet play anything interesting. That period is going to be a lot shorter if you try to learn Perico del Lunar’s falsetas than if you try Chicuelo’s. When you’ve mastered that, you can move on.

Look at the portraits Pablo Picasso did when he was fourteen.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2011 0:06:25

NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Munin)

Regarding rasgueado technique in JM books, he also teaches the eamieami... continuous rasgueado. I spent many hours practicing this abomination only to discover that it's seldom used anymore. It does not sound very crisp when played by anyone and is very difficult to play. When you encounter this you may want to replace it with either amiiamii or eamiieamii continuous rasgueados.

I still use the 4 stroke eami but I also use amii. I don't think you necessarily have to decide between which the two because they both have their uses and I found that once my fingers got stronger, any rasgueado I was practicing improved rapidly so for me it was never really an issue.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2011 23:18:09

gaash

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 29 2011

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NenadK

Regarding rasgueado technique in JM books, he also teaches the eamieami... continuous rasgueado. I spent many hours practicing this abomination only to discover that it's seldom used anymore. It does not sound very crisp when played by anyone and is very difficult to play. When you encounter this you may want to replace it with either amiiamii or eamiieamii continuous rasgueados.

I still use the 4 stroke eami but I also use amii. I don't think you necessarily have to decide between which the two because they both have their uses and I found that once my fingers got stronger, any rasgueado I was practicing improved rapidly so for me it was never really an issue.

Funny. I find my eami continuous sounds much smoother than eamii or amii... The trick for me in eami continuous is to practice eamie .. not that I play it perfectly but it definitely sounds more smooth than when I do eamii continuous. Plus to be fair, he notes in the book that many people play this with eamii...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2011 23:20:52

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I wouldn't say Juan Martin is a great artist but for beginners I think he still has the best instructional books. He plays great beginner material with perfect technique, compas, and sound IMO. And I think he's great at choosing the right falsetas for every skill level.
I think if you work your way through all of his material you will have an excellent foundation to build on.

I totaly agree!

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2011 23:26:48

Guest

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Look at the portraits Pablo Picasso did when he was fourteen.

http://www.bcn.cat/museupicasso/en/collection/mpb110-010.html
bit off topic but astounding.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 2:50:43

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to Munin)

i like this painting by Picasso, but not much is known about it compared to a lot of his work. it is thought to be painted during the time when he was starting to move towards cubism

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 4:43:27

NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to gaash)

quote:

Funny. I find my eami continuous sounds much smoother than eamii or amii... The trick for me in eami continuous is to practice eamie .. not that I play it perfectly but it definitely sounds more smooth than when I do eamii continuous. Plus to be fair, he notes in the book that many people play this with eamii...

I suppose if smooth is what you're looking for I can see (hear) the appeal. To my ears its definitely more of eamieami is definitely more of a continuous roll but I tend to prefer the clearer separation in amiiamii though this may be just because it's more commonly used today and I may be biased. I find that the differences between amii and eamii are kind of similar. As soon as you include the pinky and the extra strum it seems to sound smoother but without it you get the clearer separation. I'm trying to learn both of those but considering the effort required for me at least eamieami continuous is a waste of time. I've put so much time into it and hit a major wall while with any other that I've tried I've progressed very quickly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 5:30:35

Guest

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

amii

back on topic [almost]
a friend took a few lessons with Cano and showed me a continous rasq using
P [up] a i P[down]...think Jason M uses this one abit....good variation on the 3 stroke albanico....
working on this one. anybody else using this as a substitute for amii?
without knowing the material in the book my amii works better than eamii which i guess is why i'm working on eamii more...figure it's better to feel at home with both...
Dont have much exp with JM books and just a bit with the GGM, so interesting reading the comments. Thanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 5:36:48

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

Yes i agree. If you absolutly want to play eami to get the "specific" sound, then you should do it. But don't believe you absolutly need to achieve it to sound authentic coz it's not true.

The above statement is true. You don't need eami to achieve authenticity. Likewise, you don't need amii to achieve authienticity either. the rasqeuado sequence eami is just as authentic as amii, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just because the more "modern" guitarists prefer amii, it should be viewed as just that: a modern preference. Play both, or one or the other. What you enjoy is what you should play, and it will all be authentic.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 7:10:29

gaash

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 29 2011

RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NenadK

quote:

Funny. I find my eami continuous sounds much smoother than eamii or amii... The trick for me in eami continuous is to practice eamie .. not that I play it perfectly but it definitely sounds more smooth than when I do eamii continuous. Plus to be fair, he notes in the book that many people play this with eamii...

I suppose if smooth is what you're looking for I can see (hear) the appeal. To my ears its definitely more of eamieami is definitely more of a continuous roll but I tend to prefer the clearer separation in amiiamii though this may be just because it's more commonly used today and I may be biased. I find that the differences between amii and eamii are kind of similar. As soon as you include the pinky and the extra strum it seems to sound smoother but without it you get the clearer separation. I'm trying to learn both of those but considering the effort required for me at least eamieami continuous is a waste of time. I've put so much time into it and hit a major wall while with any other that I've tried I've progressed very quickly.

Ok that makes sense. What I like about the eamieami is the 'continuous' sound though definitely there are times when the separation works great. Really though, as someone pointed out it really doesn't matter as long as you get the sound you want. I also find I can do eamieamieamieamieami "forever" without much tension where as eamii for more than 3 repetitions is quite difficult for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2011 13:37:43