How to sit while playing guitar...

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rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

How to sit while playing guitar...

Hey mates,

I used to play ping pong a long time ago, and I sort of strained my right lower back (because of all of those topspin shots that have a lot of hip rotation). So the pain has come back to me throughout and after this first year of medical school due to the long hours of sitting and studying. Now, when I play guitar, I don't feel very comfortable in that lower back area. I was just wondering: when you play, do you sit back and have your back flat against the back of the chair? Or do you have your back straight but not touching the back of the chair? I can only play with the cross-legged position (never was able to play well with the traditional position), and I've been playing for 6 years now. I used to have no problem sitting (but not having my back touch the back of the chair) with my back very straight (I have a sort of exaggerated posture where my back is so straight, that it sort of starts to go the wrong way i.e. I sort of have it angled backward, the opposite of slouching forward), but now, after this first year of medical school, my back hurts when I sit like this. So I've started trying to have my back against the back of the chair, but I feel that that restricts my motion when I play - I just can't move my arms/shoulders as well. What do you advise?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 13:58:00

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I used to play ping pong a long time ago, and I sort of strained my right lower back

Hi Ramzi
I did mine in a gym when I was about 20, trying to impress a boy. When he'd done his long run-up and double flip, my response was "I can do that". Unfortunately I only managed one and a half. The relationship lasted a year and I'm still paying. The price seems to get higher as I get older.

I suspect that you're going to get lots of advice on this thread - maybe some conflicting stuff. For what it's worth, this is mine.

I've struggled with seating positions and recently the most comfortable I've found is to use this small, old padded chair with very short legs and no arms. I can sit right back in it or even use a cushion to support the back if necessary. Feet can be firmly on the ground with knees bent a little higher than right angle. Guitar is supported and body is free to move as it needs to. Obviously, if ever I manage to get to performance level, I won't be dragging my chair with me but for home it works for me.

Think in the long-term and do whatever it takes to protect your back. You're in a demanding profession. Strengthen the abs. Alexander technique is helpful for arm/shoulder tension.
Good luck
Val

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 14:39:05

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to val)

Hello Val,

Allow me to thank you firstly for you prompt, kind, and meaningful response.

I have gotten to a point that I feel as though my muscles are really in need of toning as they have gotten quite weak due to a lack of physical activity. I guess you are going to be surprised to know that I am a mere 22 years old. What am I going to expect when I get a older? God knows. This is why I have set my mind straight on going to a gym starting tomorrow to get myself working out my body a little. At first I used to say that I didn't need to, but now, I've noticed that my body's bad physical condition has really started hindering my life altogether (studying has become difficult, guitar playing has become annoying, and any other non-habitual activity has become a risk of self-injury). I just hope I get the discipline and time to actually start improving myself physically. Once again, thank you.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 14:52:41

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

I started to do push-ups and other stuff a couple of weeks ago, because I started to feel unconfortable when playing guitar.

I can't say it helped much, except that I look hot and sexy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 15:04:49

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

going to a gym starting tomorrow to get myself working out my body a little

Take it slow. Do your gyms have coaches who do an assessment before you start a programme? If not, you need to be very careful and don't overdo things on your first day/week or you'll be sorely sorry. Stretching exercises are probably best for your back along with anything that strengthens the abdominal muscles. Trouble is - this is all very boring and it's hard finding the self-discipline. When playing the guitar try to keep your shoulders DOWN and avoid hunching them - that's what creates the tension.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that you are only 22. Do fit 22 year olds still exist?
Val

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 15:07:18

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

i got a combo Gym/aerobics card at a place in town so i go 2 times a week, 3 if i can.
my ideal would be 2 aerobic and 1 gym. it works wonders for consentration as well.
..besides this im not a health freak. if i didnt gain weight so ealsily i would n´t workout at all...im lazy as hell

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 15:46:45

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to cneberg)

cneberg: I just started doing pushups and noticed that my left wrist hurts when I do the pushups that I had to stop... My left wrist I guess because it's always bent when fretting ... do you get that too? Any remedies?

val: You're right. I will definitely go slow. I never overdo it at the gym. I try to do the movements correctly, safely, and effectively.

duende: I think my biggest vice is procrastination. Where I'd be if I hadn't fallen into this habit ...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 18:46:35

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I can only play with the cross-legged position

As somebody born with a slight scoliosis to begin with I can say if you have a bad back anyways this is about the worst way you can play. It literally forces the vertibrae in your lower back to push outward. Then the whole time you practice you have your entire upper body weight resting on it.

I've seen many of today's great flamenco guitarists playing with a foot stool, if you have a bad back I'd suggest getting one at least for when you're practising (I practise non-crossed with a straight back, it has saved me many muscle spasms). The other only possibility is light sports which will strengthen your back.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 19:30:18

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

I use a footstool under the right leg, and my back is resting completely
against the back of the chair.

No problems. (yet)

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 19:59:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

My advice is to sit back, sit forward, cross right leg, feet flat-guitar up, guitar down cross the other leg, use footstool, take foot off footstool,etc etc, all in the course of a practice session or performance. In other words move around. Not matter what you might think is the "best" postion, sitting in ONLY one position for any length of time is not good. Keep the blood moving, move around a little bit, any time you tense up or feel something, switch your postition immedialtely. The problem is when you are tense and you are concentrated, you forget about your body, back, head, neck, etc. Make an effort to move a little to the music, tap your foot, tap your other foot, wiggle you toes, etc. Notice Vicente or Paco tilt the head way back looking up at the ceiling...it feels really good on your back and neck to do that.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 20:21:51

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

What Ricardo says is exactly what a physiotherapist told me.

our pains do not only seem to have to do with your playing position. Observe your own sitting manners during the day.
Do you put your feet up on a stool while sitting in an armchair? After I stopped doing this, my pains went away.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2007 20:43:03

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

cneberg: I just started doing pushups and noticed that my left wrist hurts when I do the pushups that I had to stop... My left wrist I guess because it's always bent when fretting ... do you get that too? Any remedies?

No. Actually my right (strumming) wrist is a notably stiffer than my left wrist, but I still don't feel any pain when doing push ups.

I agree that looking around and moving helps. It also helps me get rid of tension, because I can get extremely nervous in front of people (with sweating and cold hands). I guess it's some kind of positive thinking. Pretend that you're enjoying while playing and after awhile you really will.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2007 11:10:10

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

I have just realized that I mixed up wrist with waist...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2007 13:08:19

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I just started doing pushups

Be careful - pushups are a good way to cause or exacerbate lower back problems.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2007 18:03:12

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

Thanks everyone for the useful advice ... I'll be sure to try all the things you said (and be careful of all the things you told me to be careful of) and see what works... Thanks again.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2007 18:15:51

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

So here I am, years later after this post, still having troubles with sitting positions. I've gone to using traditional position for now, but I have a question. When I sit traditional style, my right forearm (flexor compartment) comes in contact with the guitar's edge (where the top meets the sides), which is relatively sharp (not a knife, but still, a relatively thin edge). After playing for 5 or 10 minutes, I start getting numbness in my pinky side of the arm.

The ulnar nerve passes below some of the flexor muscles in the forearm, and this is the nerve getting compressed by the edge of the guitar which sort of "cuts into" my forearm, hitting the nerve along its course. I have to keep my forearm on the guitar to support it and stop it from tipping over. I've tried having my forearm be free and NOT touch the edge, and have the biceps ("anatomical arm") be the point of contact with the guitar that keeps it upright. I need to experiment with that still.

I've had troubles with this nerve being a bit compressed and causing the same symptoms due to using the computer mouse a lot. I've remedied that now by using my LEFT hand instead for the mouse-work, and using support under the left arm to avoid the problem arising in my left arm now.

I'm looking at videos of Paco Pena and Rafael Cortes (both use traditional sitting position). I can't seem to tell if their forearm actually comes in contact with the edge of the guitar or not - maybe Rafael Cortes' forearm does (but he's got the anatomy of a bear!) but Paco Pena's doesn't.

My only workable solution for now is to try to AVOID contact between my forearm and the guitar's edge, and see how that goes.

Any advice on the matter?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 9:09:40

Janne H

Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Sweden

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

When I was watching Paco playing in the traditional sitting position he didn´t seem to have a fixed posture, he was slightly changing he´s posture and the point of pressure to the guitar (probably along with his technical approach), sometimes balancing the guitar with the left hand and later with the right arm, keeping the body moveable and at ease.

Janne

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 9:48:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

About compressing your nerve, damn, you are pressing way to hard if you go numb. Why can't you just do what I said in the post years ago....MOVE AROUND. That goes for not just legs feet neck and head, but arms too!!!

What happens is as we come to a difficult passage, we instinctively tense up and stiffen up, stop breathing, squeeze too hard, press too hard, etc etc, all to focus on that one little sequence of notes to hold it all together so the music does not fall apart. But it is not really necessary if you simply relax and move around more. One of my favorite PDL quotes "If you think you are going to make a mistake, you are lost...". So get the playing level to the point were it is fun and relaxing and there will be no numbness.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 16:39:13

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Any advice on the matter?

Read this: http://www.egta.co.uk/content/restandfree#IIa

Actually for most efficient ( = at reduction of unnecessarily engaged muscle groups / least neuronal activity ) you need the lower arm to be rested ( in a certain way ).

The sharp edges of guitar corpuses are really a point.
I am tyring since years to catch the attention of luthiers who still shape their edges like of a rough banana box.
Ergonomically ideal would be bevels like those of Grit Laskin, but at least some decent rounding should be a matter of common routine.
Some luthiers prove some curious splits, by showing ability of fine sense in how to build conclusively, yet missing the aesthetics of proprtional edge rounding, let alone said ergonomic demands. They don´t figure just the ennobling effect of proportionally rounded edges ( as it occures whith about any [ practical] object, not just instruments.)
But some minutes of cutting edges go a long way.

When physically well trained with firm flesh / well toned muscles, one can play for many hours without consciously realizing the irk. However, unconscious omitting will still be going on in order to lessen the squeeze of vessels and tendons. Thus, engagement of many muscle groups of arm, shoulder (!) and back under tension which will restrict the physiological and nervous capacity available for the actual playing execution.
The fact that professional players show how they will cope still, doesn´t inevitably mean that there ain´t economical / ergonomical postures to adapt to.

What helps with the classical position is to pull back the right foot ( under or beside of the chair ), as shown here:

( Taken from Bellucci´s site.)
It helps balancing the pelvis.

What sitting is concerned, there exists one way of positioning the spine, so that it will bear on its own / without extra muscle activity to keep straight.

Sit on the first 1/3 of the chair with your feet parallel and the knees at 90°. ( If there are only either higher or lower chairs available than your lower leg determines, prefer the higher one.)
Then slouch to max first, and vice versa, push the lower back through to max. Repeat a couple of times, before you find the feeling for where the exact middle between the two extremes is.
The exact middle is where the spine rests idle.
When found you will feel the relief, with no muscular support needed then.

It will take you some time to make it habitual, but the benefit might convince you to keep at it.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 17:20:07

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

Hi Ricardo,

You are very right about the psychological part of unconscious tensioning up.

However, what does your arm weigh, the minute you would actually suspend your shoulder from pulling the arm up?

~ 10 kg, 15?

You don´t need involuntary pressing down first ( which besides seems to occure the least; unlike pulling up, which is much more typical action ) to make for a high enough pressure to cause discomfort and omitting attempts.

If you don´t feel presssure in your lower arm after hours of playing you either own a guitar with an arm rest bevel, or you are unconsciously pulling up your arm, with the latter being more common than not anyway.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 17:36:09

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks everyone.

Janne: thanks for the input. I'll try changing points of contact between my forearm and the guitar's edge.

Ricardo: thanks for the input. I prefer to stick to just ONE sitting position, rather than use tons to relieve pressure. I find using just one will allow me to finally get used to the position I choose. However, if doing so is going to result in numbness / discomfort, then I'll just have to use several positions one after the other to avoid over-stressing a single part of my body. About pressing too hard - I don't know; that's possible. I mean, I actually see a line of compression in the skin (like when you've slept in one position for some time, and wake up to find your skin "creased") after playing for 5 or 10 minutes. I might be pressing too hard, but that happens even with the easiest/most relaxed playing. It's possible also that I have quite skinny extremities, and thus no fat to cushion the nerve at all. I actually have problems with nerve compression over bony prominences in other parts of my body (nothing related to guitar in any way), so that may indeed be a problem with my body type / build / composition.

Ruphus: thanks for the input. I agree totally about "rounding the edges" on guitars. I actually tried to wear one of those wrist towels (with rubber - the ones tennis players use) around the point of my forearm where the edge comes in contact. This was supposed to act as a cushion. I felt it helped, but seeing as the thing was a WRIST towel, it was too tight on my forearm. I'm going to get an elbow-support soon though, and see if that acts as a synthetic fat-pad or cushion over the point of contact between forearm and guitar edge. If that works, eureka! I also tried putting a piece of cloth over the guitar's edge to make it more rounded, and that helped delay the occurrence of the numbness too. Therefore, I might want to put on a sleeve or use a piece of fabric (like some classical guitarists do to allow easier gliding of the forearm over the edge of the guitar) when playing for a while, and see if that helps.

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2011 18:37:43

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

You can also use one of these ( maybe together with cushion).
I have one, and used it for a while. It works alright.
An additional advantage is that your forearm won´t touch the top, letting it resonate a little more freely.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 10:32:33

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to Ruphus)

Wow, Ruphus! You are the KING of ergonomics!

Now where did you get THAT from? Please advise...

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 10:37:01

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

From "Schneidermusik".

Here it is of elm:
http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/cPath/87_1000258/search_in_categories/1/sort/products_sort_order/page/6/products_id/3570?osCsid=5b755c5020d665d678f185d0fb0b6838

Of pear wood:
http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/cPath/87_1000258/search_in_categories/1/sort/products_sort_order/page/6/products_id/70954?osCsid=5b755c5020d665d678f185d0fb0b6838

Foil to protect shellack or nitro finish of suction cups:
http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/cPath/87_1000258/search_in_categories/1/sort/products_sort_order/page/7/products_id/12125?osCsid=5b755c5020d665d678f185d0fb0b6838

And here those sleeves you mentioned:
http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/cPath/87_1000258/search_in_categories/1/sort/products_sort_order/page/6/products_id/19122?osCsid=5b755c5020d665d678f185d0fb0b6838

But check out thoroughly, these sleeves are available with all kinds of sizes and different degrees of stiffness.

Cheers,

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 11:21:30

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks Ruphus! My whole right upper extremity seems to be worsening, symptoms wise. I'm going to take a week off and rest, and try a course of NSAIDs. Let's see what happens.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 14:27:23

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Thanks Ruphus! My whole right upper extremity seems to be worsening, symptoms wise.

You´re welcome!
Also consider the eventual cause of your left leg. It would be the counter part of the upper right extremity, in case of uneven movement / walking due to either slanting pelvis or just habitus.

A good orthopedist or chiropractor should be able to see it, in case.

Wrong walking habits appear to be very common, at least according to what I see in the streets.

Just saying.

Wish you quick recovery!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 16:37:29

davewphx

Posts: 126
Joined: Jul. 11 2011

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

Hello, have you tried just sitting on a big soft couch, and letting that support the bottom of the guitar? Since I just started playing an acoustic after years of playing thin line Gibson hollowbody electrics (with a strap), I was hurting my hand and forearm muscles getting used to the larger instrument. Sitting on the couch made it much easier to support for the first couple weeks while my body adapted. Just thought I'd mention it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2011 23:04:40

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

rombsix-

When playing in the traditional position, the inner part of the forearm should not contact the corner where the top of the guitar meets the side!

Look at this photo of Sabicas

http://tinyurl.com/3lcjvbo

and at Ricardo's avatar in this thread.

The inner part of the upper arm rests flat on the side. The corner comes inside the elbow, but without exerting pressure. The inner part of the forearm is parallel to the top, perhaps lightly touching. The right thigh should be tilted slightly above horizontal, gripping the lower side of the instrument. I'm tall--6'4" = 193 cm--so I use a footstool at its lowest position under my right foot to tilt the thigh upward.

The instrument is gripped between the upper arm and the right thigh. The elbow joint and forearm are free to move, and the corner does not numb the nerves.

The guitar can be held quite firmly this way, without inducing numbness. One of my teachers used to grab the neck of the guitar and try to wrench it away. Held properly, the instrument is quite stable.

Try it...

Good luck,

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2011 2:33:20

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Thank you Richard.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2011 6:11:57

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How to sit while playing guitar... (in reply to rombsix)

You're welcome. There's a photo on this site of Paco in his youth displaying the same posture:

http://www.pacodelucia.com/

and here, same deal, forearm parallel to top, not resting on corner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paco_de_lucia_2007.jpg

and a little closer to the present day:

http://www.tablaocordobes.com/noticias/articulo/en/5/57

So if Paco holds the guitar that way, it must be divinely sanctioned, right?

Here is a classical version of the same sort of thing, with Julian Bream:

http://tinyurl.com/3cszhvc

The upper side of the guitar is tilted back slightly toward the player's chest, so the forearm doesn't rest heavily on the sharp corner.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2011 16:32:25