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KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

Question

When watching or making a video of a flamenco guitar falseta lesson, with a slow and fast version, Do you expect the slow version to be more accurate than the faster version?

It would seem logical but from what i see around this is often not the case. So what does this mean?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 8:47:18

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

I think when people play something that is cool that inspires them it comes naturaly , and is quite posibly easier to play at tempo .

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 8:53:51

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

It means playing at "normal" tempo, a player has momentum working with him.

Playing something like a bulerias falsetta ultra slow presents pretty big
challenges in the way of right hand momentum being stifled.

Also, flamenco is similar to jazz, as far as it being improvisation based, and
most all material is a big game of telephone.

So, for the most part, the goal isnt "Note Perfect" transcription. Its everything else. :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 9:27:20

rombsix

Posts: 7830
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

It would seem logical but from what i see around this is often not the case. So what does this mean?

People usually play a falseta / learn it at a certain tempo, and their brain gets used to the configuration with their fingers moving at that speed, etc. It gets to a point when you STOP thinking about it, and your "muscle memory" is doing the work for you. It becomes automatic. That is why, if they are told to break it down, or go slow, they find they need to THINK about what they're doing to figure it out, and an active process needs to take place to recall what is being played, rather than have the unconscious tell the fingers what to do.

If you've learned the falseta sloppily to begin with, it will be even worse to try and play it slow.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 9:28:21

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

So at what point or tempo does the music begin and turn into something more than notes? Something considered of value?

I ask this because in theory a slow version played well should be complete enough not to require a fast version. Does this make sense?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 10:44:06

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

Recently I have been slowing my playing down until I feel an undeniable groove , for me that is the point where notes become music . When my playing gives me a feeling that makes me want to move I know that others will feel this . I think reggea music is a very strong indicater of comfortable tempo . Slap some reggea out Kris sink into that feeling of being not part of the playing but living in the music Then take a piece that you like but haven't been completely satisfied with and try and find that feeling of not playing but being present . As for slow versions they are just so others can see what's going on .

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 11:23:34

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Question (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Playing something like a bulerias falsetta ultra slow presents pretty big
challenges in the way of right hand momentum being stifled.

ToddK, So would you say, to play the same thing "well" at a slow tempo requires the same momentum in right hand movement only applied to a different point in time? Considering the guitar resonates best with a certain momentum applied to technique.

Kevin, That sounds great mate. It sounds like you have found the way to enjoy music. You are right, slow videos are usually just for showing what is going on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 11:57:05

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

Just a way Kris deffinately not the way .

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2011 12:10:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14897
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

I can teach things that I have learned myself very slow. But to teach my own music that I have composed usually at a faster tempo, then I have a big problem slowing it down and figuring out exactly what I was doing when I go fast. I notice most flamenco maestros have the same problem at times. Basically somethings that are meant to express a rhythmical feeling have a lower "speed limit". The notes themselves add up, but phrases don't have meaning as separate notes. I prefer to teach students using short rhythmical phrases rather then just slow note by note.

I refer again to the tomatito falseta I learned:

I feel when learning or teaching things that are meant to be rhythmic, it is more efficient to go this route then to go slow note by note and hope that the feeling will "eventually" come. Start feeling it right from the first few notes.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2011 22:28:52

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: Question (in reply to Ricardo)

I think this works differently for different players, and you can approach this question from a lot of angles, so it's hard to state an absolute rule. A few things seem true across the board to me, though.

I think romsix is right that it's a matter of the mind. Your mind learns notes and movements in relation to the surrounding notes and movements. If you learn something at a fast pace and then try to slow it down, the new space between the notes and movements can really throw you for a loop.

At the same time, though, speed through the strings (i.e., attack) is completely differently than tempo and rhythm. You don't have to lose the rhythm just because you slow the tempo, and each stroke through the strings should be the same even if there is more space between each stroke.

The key for me is to slow the brain as well as the hands. Don't hear separate notes just because you slowed the tempo. You can still think in phrases. You just have to feel the phrase develop over a longer period of time. This has its limits, though. At a certain point (a point I can't really define) I agree with Ricardo that things don't truly come into focus until you hear them at their intended speed. It's not because the rhythm isn't there. I think it's just that our brains aren't flexible enough to hear it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 3:19:21

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 5 2012 12:46:14

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 5:57:33

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Question (in reply to KMMI77)

If you go beyond thought and think of feel , a slow version of a piece has a completely different feel , and that for me in many ways makes the same piece at a slower tempo completely different . It would be hard to give an example of running by walking .

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2011 12:19:33