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n a certain way a guitar is a product and marketing it is lot like marketing a brand of shoes or something. But ti put it in the ace of a guitar maker that they have to do marketing is difficult for some of us to take. We're really more about thinking how a piece of wood feels then we thin it or how a neck feels. And this is important to the player. the player needs to understand that is our primary job, and it is often very difficult to shift between explaining what we do and being engaged in it.
Hopefully the player would rather have a guitar maker primarily engaged at that level of being in touch with the craft and the materials than primarily judging them on how their website works. We do have these contraption called telephones and Skype and you can call us up a talk to us, like live.
there is no argument here Stephen its wonderful that you are all those things and yes i do appreciate those things, they are great qualities in a guitar maker...but for me to appreciate you, your craft and those things you do i need to have heard of you first...that's all it comes down to
i am not from your city, noone in my city has one of your guitars...internet and marketing is all i have to hear about you and decide if i want one of your guitars or not, ...now that makes almost everyone else in another city or country....now tell me that your website and some marketing is not important ....if you wanna sell more guitars it is...
and Ron was spot on...if i see something on a website without price i automatically assume its very expensive that's why they not saying the price or i will write to them and it will be way way out of my price range and i will have to embarrassingly back off and admit to them that i cant afford it, alot of little things like that which dont cost anything to change can have an impact and make the difference between a sale or not, even if an approximate price or base price ......make a pol here of what is important to a consumer and i bet at least 80% will feel the same way...now it is up to you ...if hearing your customers and potential buyers opinion is important to you...personally i think it should be no ?
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Hopefully the player would rather have a guitar maker primarily engaged at that level of being in touch with the craft and the materials than primarily judging them on how their website works. We do have these contraption called telephones and Skype and you can call us up a talk to us, like live.
you would think, in a perfect world where people dont judge a book by its cover...but most of us do...especially when we have to pay for it ......first impressions matter...remember i dont know you, i dont know your product, i dont know your prices, i dont know how good you are and how much you love your craft, i dont know if you are going to be pleasant to talk to on a phone or not ....why would i call you when i can find 20 other websites that have all the information i need quickly ? or skype you ? and if i did is your skype opened 24 hours a day ? do i make a plan to speak to you 4 days from now and add you ? my timezone or your timezone ? how do i get your skype id is it on your website ? there's the convenience thing again...like it or not we live in a day of convenience...all the information is online, we want it all yesterday, quotes, prices, deliveries, faq, paying bills, bank transfers etc.....i dont need to speak to anyone, that's a step out of my comfort zone...i rarely need to speak to someone i dont know on the phone...again i didn't invent this...is just the way things are, because of the internet we live in an age of laziness, convenience, getting the information we need quicker..etc.
i understand that you might not know how to or like doing this things...but you can get help...
anyway i am not going to try to convince you anymore i wish you success in any case...not trying to be a pest to you but helpful
If focusing on the other 50% of your business is distasteful, not your strength or cup of tea then do what some artists do and hire an agent to do that part for you. Sadly most artists only focus on part 1 because that's what they're passionate about, as a result they never have a pot to piss in nor have a very bright future.
I put in a call to the woman who works on my website. Updates coming in about two weeks. Meanwhile please follow my blog.........And Anders blog too.......
I'm thinking about putting together a special promotional guitar. I'll put the details on my blog and link to it here when I work it out.
Anders, I'm hard pressed to see where you have a problem with this discussion. It appears that you have a website with all the features it should. Your prices certainly place you at the top end of your craft, while you apparently have a one year plus wait list and to top it all off you live in a great area of the world, iconic for lutherie even.
It seems to me that you must have applied yourself to the marketing end of guitarmaking very well and are benefiting from those efforts. Wassamatta?
Anders, I'm hard pressed to see where you have a problem with this discussion
I reckon... this forum with all the "blah blah ****" served you well and got you plenty of customers that wouldn't otherwise know you existed were it not for it and all the "blah blah ****" talk and hype about your guitars ...me for one..i found out about it from the forum..i would guess and say you profited more financially because of this forum than anyone else here..including the site owner...is that a correct assumption ? deservingly so i like my guitar but lets be open here
the dvd about you making a guitar is on sale and advertised here on top as we speak and has been for a long time, that's called marketing ......not sure what your argument against marketing is
all of this ..including this thread weather you know it or not, mean it to be or not... is just another form of marketing...i bet some are now more curious about Stephens product with all the praises about the quality of the product and might even get a few extra customers...even if not he has raised awareness to his product and got atleast 300 people clicking on his page looking at his products
Please guys I don't want this to get nasty and personal about guitar makers who talk here. We've had enough of that in the past; Including me being a jerk.
I respect all the makers, I might not agree with everything they do, but lets not go back there. This started out of my frustration about getting some exposure or recognition and how I, we, struggle with keeping going. It's not who has more clients among us, it's about how difficult it is to do this for a living and how we can get better.
We've all been getting along pretty well and I'd like to keep it that way.
all of this ..including this thread weather you know it or not, mean it to be or not... is just another form of marketing..
This was actually about me getting really honestly frustrated about how long I've been doing this and seeing others without much experience pass me in getting known.
If I threw a tantrum worthy of a soprano on her period then hooray for me.
Keep in mind it has been trying times globally and not just for luthiers, all you can do is try to stay positive. You do what you need to do to pay your bills and make a secure future for yourself but giving up lutherie entirely would be a real loss. Seems to be a lot of frustration going around these days in people so I'm not going to bash anyone for blowing off a little steam. Cheers
Stephen / Anders, I can help you guys out having a simple website design for free, including updating it. To me it much worth that the passion for guitar building needs to stay alive.
The sites aren't that complicated, and doesn't need to cost a lot of money. But the world of webdesign ask crazy prices. The only thing you have to do is find a a cheap and good hosting provider.
One way or another, it doesn't mather how passionate you are about guitar making, if it doesn't fullfill your needs (whether that be money or recognition), one time you'll run into this. Marketing is becoming a more important tool in this smaller getting world. But marketing isn't necesarily a bad thing.
all of this ..including this thread weather you know it or not, mean it to be or not... is just another form of marketing..
This was actually about me getting really honestly frustrated about how long I've been doing this and seeing others without much experience pass me in getting known.
If I threw a tantrum worthy of a soprano on her period then hooray for me.
thats ok and understandable...but it might also become an important and useful source of information to you..hope it does
Many useful and well observed comments here, I think.
Most of guitar making people, repairmen and experts who I have communicated with privately, expressed a dismissing opinion to me about guitar forums and internet, similar to Anders in this thread.
But is it really that the percentage of **** in forums was to be that high? I don´t think so. ( Not anymore. - Initially there used to be uncivilized times; at least in audio forums that I read in almost 15 years ago.) It´s been a long time since I saw urban mythologie like say the tale of tight grain allegedly indicating top sheets quality, or that a certain brand was to be the shizzniz of classical guitars on default, etc. Instead my impression over the past years is that the wisdom of specialists and experienced users seems to have raised the communitie´s ( hence: mine ) average knowledge by a fair measure, and that the overview of the community on products, sources and literature has helped the individual member. It definitly helped me a lot.
( Anyone here remember those times when all you had for product research was reflections of a tiny circle of consumers, clueless or sneaky sales clerks and pitching magazines?)
Sure, when it is about peripheral or unrelated matters, like say recording techniques and means in guitar forums there will rather show lack of special information; but that mustn´t surprise or annoy.
And what the internet is concerned ... Before it went public, reported on as communication network for the industry, I was too stupid at that time to estimate its general potential. Today it has long since become invaluable means of research, exchange of info and escape from marketing vertigo and societal distortion through concertated media. Right, how valuable it can be depends on user skills, but notwithstanding: It stays enormous and unique informational gift of late history without doubt. A tool for direct democracy like no other before. ( Which is in the same time, unfortunately, why there is already being worked on to slim it down, by selective mirroring etc.) -
Also very true what Florian and others pointed out above. The term of marketing tends to leave bad taste in one´s mouth, because of all the slickness that it is justifiedly so associated with.
But marketing can be a fair thing just as well. Promoting without misleading. Serving both, producer and customers who could actually be on for a good deal.
Certainly can there be imployed enticing means without equalling unethical conduct. Tasty photographies, catchy layout, eloquent discriptions, highlighted features ...
There should be no problem with it as long as there is no sly conceal of inferiour attributes, exaggeration and desinformation. Marketing at its best can be just fair information; even if so far wittnessed rather rarely that way. -
I think that there have been some practically useful suggestions in this thread, which can either be made use of or ignored. Naturally.
Wow this threads got some real legs. In terms of revitalizing interest, Stephen, I bow down and call you master. Not that I believe that was your initial aim but damn, nice job. :) Seriously though, I hope this helps you in your decision as to where to go from here.
Marketing is simply letting people know who you are and what you do. If someone looks deeper than the surface, you end up telling a lot more about yourself than you do about your product, anyways. Pretty much unavoidable. It's all good IMO until it gets to the point that you use comparisons and negativity to promote your work. Mine is better than so and so's. **** and not based in reality. As long as you avoid that, go for it. I haven't seen that here at least with the names Anders, Stephen, Andy, Randy, John, Peter or (hopefully) Aaron attached to that.
Eventually everything either stands or falls by its own merits, not because of how loudly it's hyped. Of course we can't expect that to happen in a time frame that pleases us either. For a hundred years Strad violins were nice but Stainer was where it was at......
according to you guys, to be a good and honest luthier, its all about marketing, a good website etc.
One day we have to look like a smart*ss car salesman.
Get off my back. Or maybe I should seriously start considering doing something else with my life.
Nah Anders (& Stephen),
A real Luthier works away in hiding and experiments and produces masterpieces.
Telling anyone you exist is a sellout.
Keep all the guitars hidden away and someone will find them one day when you are dead and say what a master builder you were..
Meanwhile, don't worry about money.
Money, after all is only an illusion.
Only payos, peasants and ass-holes prostitute themseves for money.
The true Artist doesn't need money, only the Creative Force...that is the true Artist's food and shelter in this corrupt commercial world.
Draw the outline of an experimental bracing system on the back of an Electricity bill, sign it and send it back to them and I assure you they will be delighted.
Respect to both of you!
Most of us here sadly fall humbly short of that talent or those lofty ideals.
Aaron, All I can say is when you see your 15 minutes of fame walking down the sidewalk, I think you should offer it your arm. I'm probably quick on my feet, but the other day I was unhappy as hell, because I'm just human. I can appreciate what you said about every guitar maker may get to the point where they question it.
Ron, Don Dionisio advised that perhaps luthiers should be set apart from the rabble. I may have to distance myself from your ribald attitude in order to set my house in order. I'm a LUTHIER with all gravitas and prestige that that title can bear, not Benny Hill's lost American nephew.
So you want fame and recognition eh! I thought you just wanted to make the best guitars you could. If you love doing this job you will do what ever it takes to keep going. I am fully prepared to get back into my old Pizza Delivery job if sales drop off, But I will not give up on my dreams even when it gets tough.
What a tough gig making flamenco guitars must be. Working players doing local gigs make little, yet the guitars cost a lot, and are worth it. But if you make 5-30k gigging a year, how many 5k axes can you justify? Many of the people who can afford the instruments can't really use them as intended.
and then there's the conde, the ramirez, etc
Frankly, I don't understand how guys do it and make a living. But I don't have to understand because I'll never have the talent to make a guitar at all, much less a good one.
As to money, I'm fairly certain that money can be made at many ventures, but comes mostly to people who focus on earning it. I'd love to earn tons of money playing music, but playing music doesn't pay-selling your performance pays. That's something I have currently zero interest in so I'm not going to be making much money playing. Artistic pursuits by their nature, are not focused on making money.
There's little harder money I've earned than doing gigs, and I suspect it's the same with making instruments by hand. Lots of work, time, passion, little money.
I imagine part of the reward is a great player creating incredible music on the instrument you built. That must be extremely artistically satisfying. But as far as making money, that and 1.75 will get you bus fare. Best of luck to you Estebanana.
Things are pretty tough...I've weathered a lot of stuff most people would have dropped out of a long time ago. I'm not going to drag my personal stuff through here, but I would classify myself as a stick to it though the most difficult time person/builder.
The true Artist doesn't need money, only the Creative Force...that is the true Artist's food and shelter in this corrupt commercial world.
cheers,
Ron
It´s indeed a popular association.
There have been a number of discussions with friends who thought thelike, and to whom I suggested that while in some ( historical ) cases artists preduced their best when under economical pressure, such mustn´t be a generally valid example at all. Telling how things can work the opposite way, when economical pressure occupies an artist´s mind and actually crashes his creativity under stress and worries.
As a rebuting example I used to quote from a video interview with Paco de Lucia on his own island. In that film you would see the beach and hear Paco voice roughly like "People think artists ought to suffer first for to be creative. I don´t care about that; I just flop down down here in my hammock on my beach and enjoy, getting up from time to time to gig somewhere and then return. That´s it."
Ruphus
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Stephen, Yeah man, you're a professional and a damn good luthier. Maybe you could start a new thread-showing the 'community' what you're accomplishing despite the self-doubt and adversity that you are experiencing. I know I'll be interested to see how you have handled things in a coming weeks. All the best, Dennis
ORIGINAL: Ruphus As a rebuting example I used to quote from a video interview with Paco de Lucia on his own island. In that film you would see the beach and hear Paco voice roughly like "People think artists ought to suffer first for to be creative. I don´t care about that; I just flop down down here in my hammock on my beach and enjoy, getting up from time to time to gig somewhere and then return. That´s it."
After people mentioned i tend to agree to that its a common misinterpretation. He meant it ironically. He is a person who has practiced 12h a day in his childhood, and says that later he was happy about this sacrifice. And its clear, without it, he wouldnt be PdL.
He was about economical pressure, not about what practicing efforts it takes for the arts. And refuting baseless stereotype of poor artists producing well only honours him.
Marketing is becoming a more important tool in this smaller getting world. But marketing isn't necesarily a bad thing.
Drop me a line if you are interested.
Anyway, goodluck with this period!
Marketing is everything now.. even if you have a shiiit product.. you might have the holy grail of a product.. but if no one knows about it.. then you have nothing.. After you have a foothold in a market.. then you can depend on reputation and more word of mouth marketing..
I used to buy these really nice homemade pastries from an organic fruit & vegetable shop. The guy who ran it was also a chef and made them on the premises using only organic ingredients. I used to pay a bit more for them as opposed to other non organic pastry shops... i loved those pastries.
One day i walked in there and asked for one and he angrily replied: 'NOPE, wont be making anymore'. Naturally i felt a little uncomfortable because he was visibly aggitated. I asked him why and he proceeded to have a swipe at everyone who did buy things from his shop, stating that THEY should have supported HIM more by buying things more often and more regually. He then went on to tell me how he was going to have to go back to working long hours as a chef and how he was hating that, and making me feel like i was part of the problem that led to his demise. He was quite blunt and rude about it too.
I walked out feeling like a little kid who just got told off for doing something wrong. Then i thought to myself 'hey, screw you pal its not my fault you went out of business' Fact is i WAS buying thing from him regually and paying a bit more than normal for them. To this day i still dont understand why he lashed out at the customers he DID have, and didnt anylise WHY he wasnt attracting more customers.
His problem imo, also was marketing and location...and a very poor business sense. He was a nice guy though, he was just shattered his business went down the tube and was reacting to it at those around him.
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i wish you success in any case...not trying to be a pest to you but helpful 
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