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golpeador

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Mar. 7 2011
 

Self taught or find a teacher? 
Dear Foro Flamenco users, this is my first post so hello to you all,

I’m very interested to know from the experienced flamenco guitar players out there, if it is possible to teach oneself through learning aids such as “Juan Martins El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra” to play flamenco guitar well and in good compass? Rather than seeking the assistance of a flamenco guitar teacher? Maybe its good to attain a certain standard and then seek out a teacher to move on to the next level?

I’ve no music training and have been following Juan Martins book for the last 12 months. I do feel I’m making progress, and I understand the need to practice things slowly and get things just right before moving on. I do also realize that, what I think sounds correct, may to an experienced player sound awful!


Many thanks for your thoughts in advance.

James
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 19:12:07
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
Hey James and welcome.

in my humble opinion, you should do both. A teacher is definitely a must though, and I say this as someone who at the moment doesn't have one, but has struggled much in the past. I can't tell you how many times I have had to start over because i did not grasp some fundamental aspect of playing. Flamenco rhythm and the right hand patterns for playing rhythm are very difficult to learn from books, and even videos. This is why when I did find a qualified teacher (this is the second must), I asked him to teach me rhythm patterns almost exclusively.

The other advantage of finding a teacher is that you will be less isolated which is very important. I am pretty much isolated, and I plan on changing that quite soon. A teacher can put you in touch with the flamenco community in your city and that is a good thing! (in terms of accompanying dancers, meeting other guitarists etc).

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 19:44:00
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
I think completely self-teaching is not possible. For the beginning you definitely need people who know flamenco. I got my knowledge through a decade playing in many dance schools. Most of the time not as fist guitarist, but the second one even without mic. I just sat there copied everything what the experienced players did and talked a lot. The solo skills came from a teacher who teached my classics and all the basic flamenco techniques with very old material. I learned a lot Sabicas.. then I found friends who were at the same skill as me. And we pushed each other.

So without the help of other people.. you wont learn to play flamenco guitar. Im 100% sure.. I can hear the difference of a player who learned playing for dance or not. So..the answer is, look for danceclesses where good players are. The books of Jmartin and Graf xy are optional. Graf Martinez teaches picado wrong..so ..be careful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 19:49:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
It is possible, but not advisable, and certainly you mustn't think that you need to achieve a level before it will be worth to get a teacher. Get one as early as possible. If you dont have the opportunity in real life, i would recommend Jason McGuire's online lessons. He has alot of stuff. There are others too.

No matter what, you will be your biggest teacher. Learning flamenco guitar requires alot of self training. Teachers can help here and there but the main work is in your side to observe yourself, your fingers, try out techniques a different way if it works. Thats the "mechanics". For the musical side you need to listen alot. Get secure in your tastes and play whatever you play with conviction - then it will sound good.

I had about 10 solo guitar lessons in the last 8 years of guitar playing, so, im merely self taught, but mostly because teachers were quite far away and i couldnt afford traveling. When its about dance accompanying i had no lesson at all. I just picked up stuff from Solo Compas CDs and countless rehearsals with dancers - horrible idea! Very uneffective. If i could start again, i would choose Doitsujins method via sitting in a class or getting a teacher only for accompayning...

Also have in mind... if youre surrounded by good people you will get good results, if your surrounded by bad people, you will get bad results. Sorry but that is the simple truth. I see it everywhere, with different students from different regions.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 20:07:58
 
sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
HI James,

You should try and find a teacher and start off on the right foot. There's so many little details that determine good or bad technique. My teacher is always making tiny micro adjustments to my wrist position or thumb or finger angle etc etc...

Carry on with the JM book but get some lessons as well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 20:20:56
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
Starting from 1.20min the cookie monster talks exactly about your question... !

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2011 20:38:59
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
James:
Where are you from, maybe someone from the forum can recomend a teacher in your area?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 0:28:58
 
vuduchyld

 

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
I vote for a teacher.

Yes, continue to self-study, but a teacher can really help your technique. You can't watch/listen to yourself play very easily...and you wouldn't really know what to look for, anyway.

If Tiger Woods uses a swing coach, that should tell you something about the value of having somebody observe what you are doing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 2:25:26
Guest

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
guess we all teach ourselves in the end
but nothing beats the interaction of someone who is more experienced in your area of study..offering positive critique and tasks..
music is a communal activity...
seek to play with those better than yourself...
good luck...

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 3:41:56
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to golpeador) 
[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 4:00:53
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
hi James ...agree with everyone else...at the start for a few years u need an actual person to look at your technique, show you the techniques, critique you on it...some important things or hand positions that make huge difference don't read well in books or videos or you can easily miss them...its why its a good idea if possible to have a teacher physically there......and use those books/ videos/ etc for supplements


u need to learn how to learn first to consider becoming self thought

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 4:19:02
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
This is just to confirm what everyone has pretty much advised... you can learn by yourself, but a teacher will make things much easier.
He/she will help you get the technique and the compas right from the start so you won't have to unlearn things in order to learn them properly at a later stage... this will save you a lot of time and energy.
But do bear in mind that even if you get a teacher, you still have to work hard at it on your own... a teacher is more of a guide in that sense... in my experience at least.

Saludos
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 8:47:57
 
golpeador

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Mar. 7 2011
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to avimuno) 
Whoa! What a great response and unanimous at that! I was hoping that somebody would say that self teaching is possible to begin with, but now I’ll scrap that idea after reading these comments.

I live in Dorchester, Dorset does anybody know of any good teachers close to me?

I do know of a flamenco guitar teacher based in Bournemouth; http://www.mitierraflamenca.com/

Does anybody know of a Flamenco Guitar teacher based nearer me?
Thanks for your comments.

James
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 18:00:08
 
Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to Harry) 
quote:

Hey James and welcome.

in my humble opinion, you should do both. A teacher is definitely a must though, and I say this as someone who at the moment doesn't have one, but has struggled much in the past. I can't tell you how many times I have had to start over because i did not grasp some fundamental aspect of playing. Flamenco rhythm and the right hand patterns for playing rhythm are very difficult to learn from books, and even videos. This is why when I did find a qualified teacher (this is the second must), I asked him to teach me rhythm patterns almost exclusively.

The other advantage of finding a teacher is that you will be less isolated which is very important. I am pretty much isolated, and I plan on changing that quite soon. A teacher can put you in touch with the flamenco community in your city and that is a good thing! (in terms of accompanying dancers, meeting other guitarists etc).


i'll only put what Harry did write with no word more, no word less. This is exactly what happed with me and i also started by Juan Martin's materials.. Being a part from the flamenco community that you will discover it exist is you found a good teacher is something priceless. I'm doing Palmas classes, and dance accompaniment follow up with my teacher and every week i get a new knowledge beside the usual spanish language course if you don't speak any Good luck and welcome to the most coolest flamenco forum ever existed

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2011 20:21:11
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
quote:

For the musical side you need to listen alot.


This is a very good piece of advice. As a guitarist, you're interested in learning how to use your hands, but, before anything else, you have to be what they call a "good aficionado," which ultimately means that you like to listen. It's especially important for those of us who weren't born in a house where flamenco or similar music (copla) is on the radio or whatever.

So, some people are better than others at learning on their own, and you'll definitely need guidance insofar as correcting hand and finger positions, but everyone has to spend a lot of time listening, and that's a kind of learning that you can only do alone.

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2011 8:02:40
 
JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to golpeador) 
Absolutely!

Ruben Diaz has a long essay asserting the importance of a good teacher.

quote:


The Certainty of Uncertainty (or) To have Uncertainty as the only one Certainty… 1

Ruben Diaz
Can a human being live withoutany certainty?...

Is not true that without some sort of certainty we lose all sense of structure and enthusiasm in what we do?...

For some the only certainty is to be uncertain (about what they want to achieve, or for example, to which are their long and short term goals with the guitar.)

So would that be Ok?...

At least that’s also a kind of “certainty”…

What does it mean certainty?...,and how does this concept would ever apply to our process of learning guitar?...

According to the Oxford Dictionary certainty means:
................



But enough jokes, I think the bigger question is how to find and distinguish a good teacher from a bad or inferior one.

_____________________________

Don't afraid to be harsh in criticising my play. We're here to learn.

Check out my (non-flamenco) compositions :D
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2011 13:46:36
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to JieXian) 
quote:

Is not true that without some sort of certainty we lose all sense of structure and enthusiasm in what we do?...

For some the only certainty is to be uncertain (about what they want to achieve, or for example, to which are their long and short term goals with the guitar.)


As kooky as this may sound, I AGREE with this statement up above. I am self taught, and to be honest need help.

I've learnt things on my own and because their is soooo many resources on the interent now it makes it easier to learn, however, their are MANY times where I wonder if I am doing a techinque correct.

It also takes me longer to get a palos down correctly. A teacher is the way to go.

In a month I am planning on taking lessons with Ricardo Marlow!!!

Have you ever thought of taking lessons from him?

He is an awesome player and I've heard TONS of GREAT reviews on his teaching.

I recently just purchased a Buleria lesson on flamenco teacher.com that Ricardo teaches and it is AWESOME!!!

Thanks,

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 10 2011 23:08:44
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Self taught or find a teacher? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

guess we all teach ourselves in the end


True, however the decisive difference would be whether one will teach oneself arbitray / temporarily handy appearing home-grown appraoch, or something useful in the long run.

Commonly the latter should be much more probable with the help of a good teacher.

As an autodidact I can confirm how horrendous waste of time and energy can be looking like; not to mention tremendous efforts required to repair wrong techniques after them having become imprinted routine. ( Which they become pretty fast.)

Of the autodidactcs that I have seen only very few had the luck of walking down an ergonomic path.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2011 12:34:54
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