Tuning methods

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Tuning methods

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Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

Tuning methods

If anyone could spare a moment I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter of tuning the guitar. I'm ashamed to admit that after after many years of playing the guitar (until recently 35 years of undisciplined noodling around the fretboard!) I'm still a bit unsure of the best way to tune. I've checked previous threads on this matter and it seems folks have their favourite methods which work for them.

Anyway, I've just read up about equal temperament tuning and was suprised to read that it is advised never to use a 7th fret harmonic as a tuning reference, and the reason given is because it is a pure fifth, whereas the fretted seventh note is a tempered fifth, meaning that it is slightly flatter. I've checked this by comparing the seventh fret harmonic with the seventh fretted note played using the assisted harmonic at the 19th fret and there does seem to be this difference. The equal temperament method advises using only octave harmonics and unisons...

Anyway up till now I've been using the fifth / seventh fret harmonic method and it seems to have worked...but now I'm unsure...maybe I've never really been it tune..I find tuning to be a frustrating process and playing by yourself I suppose you get a bit lazy...I know I do!

I'm going to check this during my next Skype lesson with Ricardo but would like to hear what anyone thinks on this matter.

Here's a link to the page I was reading http://www.stagepass.com/tuning.html

Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 13:32:10

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

I also used to use harmonics, but after 20+ years I cracked and bought a tiny planet waves tuner so I tune the open strings. The results have been much, much better. The method outlined in the article seems like a pain, but that's what I get for buying a tuner! I am all lazy now...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 13:36:36

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

I start by pressing the "on" button on my tuner.. then go from there

If I want to tune a particular string on the fly during a gig or something I tune it to an octave on another string. Like if the B string is out I'll tune it to the second fret on the A string.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 13:43:18

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

i like to quickly check everything, harmonic, octaves, then check E and A chords...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 13:43:52

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

i like to quickly check everything, harmonic, octaves, then check E and A chords...

Dito and exactly in the same order...
Sold my tuner 4 years ago btw. No use for them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 13:52:41

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Harry)

quote:

but after 20+ years I cracked

Yeah...I know what you mean...also got a tuner, but feel I should improve my ear....

Does no-one then use the seventh fret / fifth fret harmonic method....?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 14:01:00

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

f I want to tune a particular string on the fly during a gig or something I tune it to an octave on another string. Like if the B string is out I'll tune it to the second fret on the A string.

Thanks for that tip....when I see people tuning their guitar during a performance...you know a quick tweak snatched here and there whilst they are actually playing....I've often wondered how they manage

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 14:08:25

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

it's not difficult if you really know your instrument, not even changing to weird tunings...if you're playing a new one or someone else's then it's different...
i don't believe in tuners, if i use one and tune as it wants me to, i end up with a horrible sounding guitar...it's really only good for finding the one (in my case A) note to relate to...at least that's my view :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 15:11:16

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

I always first try tuning a string by ear and then check how close I got on a tuner one at a time, this has helped develop my ear as apposed to just relying 100% on a tuner.
Tuners can be like always doing your math on a calculator, or relying on GPS instead of learning to read a map properly, technology can have a numbing effect on the brain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 15:38:55

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

I find that most of the time what goes out of tune are the bass strings, which need to be brought up to pitch. Also, depending on your strings and the weather, you might have a second or third string that tends to be a little flat but corrects itself as you warm up. Remember to check these typical things first and you'll save time tuning.

I use these chords to test fretted vs. open strings. Play each chord slowly with thumb (one note at a time), and follow with E, A, etc. chords.

E-----------7---7--
B-------7---8---0--
G---6---7---0---4--
D---7---0---5---5--
A---0---5----------
E---5--------------

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 16:31:19

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

mmmm I never thought of tuning as a method
most of the time I try to remember the tune of the 1st string (high E) and then I tune the others B G D A E using the tune i remembered

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 17:56:34

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Elie)

I don't know about you guys but my G string is ALWAYS out of tune. Why is that??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 18:27:57

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

maybe your guitar is cheap or your G string is new

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 18:32:11

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

I don't know about you guys but my G string is ALWAYS out of tune.

It seems like at the beginning of each daily session practicing and playing my guitar, both the G and D strings require a slight tightening to bring them in tune with the rest. When I want to make sure all the strings are in tune, I open-tune them with a Sabine tuner, set at 440 for the A string.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 19:03:45

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Elie)

Yeah it's a Yamaha

I need a new guitar!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 21:29:34

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to NormanKliman)

Thanks everyone for your input...some useful stuff here....it seems everyone has their preferred way of tuning and there's not one best way....interesting though that no one has mentioned anything about this seventh fret harmonic tuning issue that I spoke of in my oringinal post...

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 21:39:56

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

quote:

Thanks everyone for your input...some useful stuff here....it seems everyone has their preferred way of tuning and there's not one best way....interesting though that no one has mentioned anything about this seventh fret harmonic tuning issue that I spoke of in my oringinal post...

Check out the Delcamp classical guitar forum for extensive discussions on tuning, including exactly the method you are asking about.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 22:06:34

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

Sure, tuning via harmonics is usually done via 5th/7th fret method...
Works for the strings EADg. For trebles i tune: b to E, e to E. From then it depends on whether im playing in A or E. For "A" i tune c# (bstring) to A, for "E" i tune the g# (gstring) to E. Lastly i check all the octaves of A and E. My tuning is a compromise between major thirds on the one hand and octaves/fifths (including harmonics) on the other. I dont like too sharp thirds, which result when i tune only via open strings/harmonics.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 22:13:05

Lorenzo

Posts: 17
Joined: Jun. 15 2007
From: New Mexico, USA

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

Maybe your g-string is on too tight? I prefer boxers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 22:26:18

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

I don't know about you guys but my G string is ALWAYS out of tune. Why is that??

i remember reading something about that string being the fattest tubbiest treble making it tune weirdly or something.... or something about equal temperament and thirds...

i dont know, anyways, its not just your guitar. high end guitars have that problem too.

i always tune the G string a little flat so that an E chord sounds good (not perfect) but not so low so an A chord would still sound good (not perfect).

i think relying on tuners can be a bad habit. but you need at least one string to be perfectly in tune.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 22:41:31

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Lorenzo)

Yeah yeah hilarious...

Thanks Anthony. My tuner has a hard time picking up the G string pitch for some reason, I'm not sure if it happens to you? If it doesn't then it might be my guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 23:04:53

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

it might be your tuner. my tuner does weird things all the time. like trying to tune my guitar a whole step down.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 23:21:10

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pawo

Thanks everyone for your input...some useful stuff here....it seems everyone has their preferred way of tuning and there's not one best way....

Don´t worry, the trend of allegedly "everything being subjective" or many ways to Rome, doesn´t really apply to most of wordly matters.
With things like tuning there definitly exist optimized procedures.
As those are only little known, the majority of players supposedly never heard what their guitar can actually sound like at its best.
According to my personal empirics, anyway.

What you want is a tuning that takes into consideration the individual intonation properties of the guitar in question and vertically and horizontally spread its deviation as evenly as possible accross the fretboard. ( Tempered tuning.)
In addition to that you want a method that reduces reference tones to as little in number as possible, and thus reduce deviance over the course of tuning from string to string.

Optimized correspondence to these requirements is provided by a method suggested by luthier Kevin Ryan; quoted below.

quote:

Tuning Notes:

A) When you tune the following fretted notes to the harmonics, tune them "beatless"-- i.e., without any hint of "rolling" or pulsating as the two notes synchronize. When two notes get closer, their "beating" slows down until it disappears altogether when they are perfectly in tune. This is very important! This is the skill to be gained!

B) In each step below, pluck the harmonic first. Then fret and pluck the designated string. This allows you to hear both notes simultaneously. Then tune the appropriate string.

1.
Tune the D string to a known source
2.
Pluck the 12th fret harmonic of the D then tune the G (fretted at the 7th fret) to this harmonic.
3.
Pluck the same 12th fret harmonic of the D then tune the B (fretted at the 3rd fret) to this harmonic
4.
Pluck the 12th fret harmonic of the G and tune the High E fretted at the 3rd fret to this harmonic
5.
Tune the 12th fret harmonic of the A to the G fretted at the 2nd fret (pluck the harmonic first!)
6.
Tune the 5th fret harmonic of the Low E to the High E open (pluck the harmonic first!)

Note: To apply the tuning method to alternate tunings, all you have to do is find the proper fretted note on the string you are tuning and tune it beatless to a 12th fret harmonic on a string below it. Easy as pie.

Final advice: take note that old strings are more difficult to tune than new strings. This is because of uneven stretching of the string and the subsequent erratic vibration patterns. In some instances, old strings are impossible to tune correctly. If you have difficulty achieving good intonation, change strings.

Following these steps you will find inspiring improvement with your instrument in all regards. Vibrancy, harmony, lushness, separation and sustain.

It pays to get accustomed to fine tuning, developing routine and demand ( which usually occures pretty fast ).
Should you feel lazy however, you could engage a strobe tuner for verifying precise accordance during the tuning and finally program the tuner with the resulting tempered precision tuning.

Provided you stay with the same kind of strings, the perfect individual tuning will then be stored and available at the touch of a button.
Should you switch to another model of strings, still using the same setting in your tuner, the result will outperform any open-string tuning still.
Yet, once used to the sound of optimized tuning, you´ll probably align your tuner whenever switching string model.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2011 7:25:03

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks for this info Ruphus. The tuning method you quote sounds very much the same as suggested by a guild of luthiers in an article I've just read.... there's a link to the article in my first post. What you say about optimized tuning and spreading the deviation across the fretboard makes sense to me....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2011 9:24:01

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks Pawo and Ruphus, you've just changed my life!

That was a good article Pawo. Thanks for the information that neither 7th fret harmonics nor using particular chords are ideal for tuning a guitar. I've always used them but after reading the article, life has changed. I find the method you and Ruphus have pointed to is a much easier and better way to tune.

"Following these steps you will find inspiring improvement with your instrument... " Ruphus, this was my experience too!

Another advantage is that now when I put a capo on anywhere, it's much more in tune. Before I always had to tune open, then capo, then tune again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2011 11:27:26

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

I am glad to see that you like it so much, Orson!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2011 13:39:37

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

So I just read a 116 page (!) masters thesis on guitar tuning and possible mistakes ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 17:43:09

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

The difference can be explained by the 2 major types of tuning:
Just Temperment and Equal Temperment

In Just Temperment, the instrument is tuned so that one key or scale (typically C major) sounds perfect. The further you get away from that key, the worse it sounds. This is very old fashioned and was mostly abandoned very early in Bach's time.

In Equal Temperment, the instrument is tuned very slightly less than perfect equally across all keys. Bach composed the "Well Tempered Klavier" to demonstrate all of the new keys that finally sounded good after this development.

Try tuning the guitar so that an E major sounds perfectly in tune. Now play a C Maj chord. The g-string typically is the bad sounding part of this experiment. A very guitar specific equal temperment method is to tune that g-string halfway between sounding perfect in a C-Maj chord and an E-Maj chord.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 17:29:49

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Tuning methods (in reply to Pawo)

Here's the rather cumbersome (!) method suggested in the thesis I mentioned

:

Tune the 1st string (e) to a known source.
Tune the 7th fret flageolet e on the 4th string to perfect unison (beatless) with the 12th fret flageolet of string 1.
Tune the 7th fret flageolet of string 4 to the 5th fret flageolet of string 5; then lower the 5th string tone, so that you can count 25 beats/minute.
Tune 7th fret flageolet of string 5 to 5th fret flageolet of string 6. Adjust so you can count 20 beats.
Tune 5th fret flageolet of string 4 to 7th string flageolet of string 3. Here the 3rd string should however be tune 2 cents higher. Adjust to 48 beats.
Tune string 2 using 5th fret flageolet on string 2 with 7th fret flageolet on string 1. Lower tension on string 2, so that you can count 60 beats.