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Why are Flamenco guitars so expensive?
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vuduchyld
Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
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 RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to sean65)
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As has been pointed out, there is something of a supply/demand issue. There really isn't enough demand drive the price down. You can't get to an economy of scale that allows for money-saving manufacturing processes...and if you did, the purists would not touch the guitar, anyway.
Personally, I think that the larger issue is all about expectations. More specifically, people who play flamenco guitar do practice a fairly demanding form of music. They tend to, most likely, have very developed musical ears. And they probably tend towards perfectionism in many of their ventures.
In reality, for most players, I'd suspect they are going to play mostly for themselves, family, and friends. The frequency of important acoustic gigs or recording sessions will be few and far between. While I'd love to spend $4000 on the perfect guitar, chances are pretty strong that I will not see the financial value in it.
That said, I'm a beginner in the flamenco world. My opinions are subject to change. Right now, I'm playing on an Eterna (made by Yamaha, but bottom end...like, from the 1980s and I think it was $100 brand new--just a crappy plywood guitar) classical guitar. When I upgrade to a $1000 guitar, it's going to be a new world for me.
I have played many, many rock and bluegrass gigs with my $400 Epiphone E-335 copy or my plywood Alvarez steel string, or more recently with my $1000 Taylor steel string. I've never been self-conscious about it once or wished for a $4000 Les Paul. I can't imagine the same won't be true with flamenco. But I guess we will see.
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Date Feb. 24 2011 3:02:54
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vuduchyld
Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
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RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to sean65)
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I also agree with the poster who pointed out that this was originally a gypsy art. Much like bluegrass in my neck o' the woods, people make do with what they can. I see people at the Walnut Valley Festival in Winfield, Kansas every year playing bass on washtubs and gas tanks. I wouldn't dare bring an expensive guitar down to Pecan Grove!!!
Anybody else ever been to Winfield? It's amazing...nothing like 15,000 acoustic musicians on a 4 day bender/jam session!!!
But my understanding is that the blancas were made of cypress and sycamore because they were CHEAP.
Again, it's subject to change, as I'm definitely a beginner, but I admit to getting MORE than my fair share of chuckles out of my forum reading over the last few weeks as so many guitars are disparaged.
It's the player, not the instrument. Tomatito could make more of my $100 Eterna classical than I'll ever make of the $35,000 Ramirez on ebay. So, basically, play whatcha got, have fun, if it somebody ever turns their nose up at my guitar, it's probably their loss not mine.
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Date Feb. 24 2011 3:08:12
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avimuno
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
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RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to sean65)
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I remember thinking the same thing when I first started playing flamenco a while back... good flamenco & classical guitars a really expensive.
And then I started thinking that if I was to get the 'equivalent' for my electric guitar I would have to spend around the same price for a decent rig. For example, my current electric rig is as follows:
- my strat: USD 2,500
- Keeley Compressor: USD 300
- Keeley TS9: USD 250
- Demeter Tremolo: USD 300
- Two Rock John Mayer Signature Head: USD 4,000 (killer amp despite the 'John Mayer' endorsement!  )
- Tone Tubbies Speaker Cabinet 4 * 12' Hemp Cones: USD 1,800
Total: USD 9,150!!
That's pretty much the price of a concert guitar (Conde, Barba, Juan Miguel Gonzalez, Marvi etc).
It's true that when it comes to a flamenco guitar you're only getting a guitar, and my electric rig has an amp with speakers etc... but my electric sound is dependent on all these elements working together. My Conde is self sufficient... I just have to put it in front of a good mic and a decent PA system to get a great live sound out of it. So you have to be ready to pay the price for professional equipment, which can be very frustrating! lol
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Date Feb. 24 2011 7:00:26
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avimuno
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
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RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to sean65)
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quote:
but since we're talking about amps, etc, dont forget that a flamenco is not nearly loud enough by itself to gig with. you also need the mics, amps, mixers, speakers, etc.
Oh I know... but the difference is that when it comes to electric guitar playing, an amp is an integral part of your instrument - Eric Johnson goes as far as hand picking his cables because every little aspect determines the final tone.
It is also the case for flamenco guitars, but not as much. First of all, you still need an amp even if you don't gig when playing electric, which is not the case of a flamenco guitar.
And secondly, you can get a very decent mic and a good PA system for a very fair amount of money, which is not the case with electric guitar amps... you really need to put in the bucks for a good amp!
I have always thought, maybe wrongly, that when it came to electric guitar tone, the amp was more important that the actual guitar. Better have an average guitar with a really good amp than the other way around.
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Date Feb. 24 2011 7:17:14
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sean65
Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London
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RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
And then I started thinking that if I was to get the 'equivalent' for my electric guitar I would have to spend around the same price for a decent rig. For example, my current electric rig is as follows:
- my strat: USD 2,500
- Keeley Compressor: USD 300
- Keeley TS9: USD 250
- Demeter Tremolo: USD 300
- Two Rock John Mayer Signature Head: USD 4,000 (killer amp despite the 'John Mayer' endorsement! )
- Tone Tubbies Speaker Cabinet 4 * 12' Hemp Cones: USD 1,800
Total: USD 9,150!!
lol... You're missing the point, That's a high end/boutique shopping list you have there. 
Let's just take a very good budget electric guitar. A PRS SE Soapbar. Great guitar, great playability and sounds pretty good as standard. What's the Flamenco equivalent?
I know the adage about great players making cheap guitars sound good but that's missing the point as well.
I'm pretty sure Santana or Gary Moore could have whipped up a storm on the PRS SE. BUT the PRS SE exists and bridges the gap between the US made high end and Asian made beginners guitars.
quote:
Ya great idea lets have everything built in China, that way everything will be dirt cheap.
Oh wait we won't be able to afford dirt cheap anymore cuz none of us will have any freakin jobs and everything will end up being mass produced crap.
lol I know how you feel Sean but globalisation and economic modelling are beyond the remit of this thread. Have a word with Bush about that one.  Actually, it's all too easy to loose site of the long term implications when you're being offered HiDef TV's, guitars, cars, bikes and knock down prices. I just wished they'd start building houses.
It does seem that a few company's exist. I wasn't aware or Cordoba Guitars so I'm not sure what they're like. Yamaha, Taylor and Godin seem to have something in their stable but it's not really defined as to what these guitar are and who they're for. Latin popsters I guess.
There just isn't much in the general music shops and the specialist shops (in London) don't seem that interested in offering a choice either.
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Date Feb. 24 2011 7:51:50
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Why are Flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: avimuno
- Demeter Tremolo: USD 300
That´s quite an example for bang-for-the-buck product.
James is a true character and genius who produces most outstanding gear at really decent prices.
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One can be really lucky with Chinese products; be it instruments or certain recording gear. And they seem to be getting better at it from year to year.
I have a Chinese-built parlor guitar that is nothing short of top notch luthiery.
Also owned a marvellous acoustic bass for cheap, only too bad that the wood must have been green at assembly, and that the top sunk in. ´had to return it.
In my limited overview cheap guitars from China can be of unexpected quality tone woods. And CNC seems to go a long way.
However products from there come with secondary tolls, which are before all environmental.
The reason for even finest woods to be found yet with cheapest guitars is that China has long since surpassed Japanese company Mitsubishi as former No.1 in international lumbering of primare forests. From there no wonder that with Chinese companies harvesting for peanuts, manufacturers form there mustn´t even care about sorting wood qualities.
Unlike in Japan ( world-wide first in thoughtless paper wastage ) where scavenging abroad is considered just fine, while national rules strictly forbid cutting down of a single tree at home, in China, despite late attempt towards change, environment is being just as mistreated like for external ressource anywhere in Latin America or Afrika.
Current tolls that count on everyones future bill.
( Including western manufacturers like Siemens who won´t support new Chinese policies, refusing to deliver environmentally friendly production technology to the Chinese at decent price.)
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What price development of guitars is concerned, I believe that it must be distinguished between mass production and hand builds.
These days one can find much better price-to-quality ration in the entry- to mid level category, compared to conditions of decades ago.
Whilst on the other hand, hand-built guitar prices have gone through the roof.
Currency value counted in, most inexpensive you could find today used to be markets top price of 30 years ago.
Whereever the actual causes for todays usury lies, amounts above 5 grands after all remain irrational.
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Grisha,
Have you heard of Vladimir Vysotsky?
I checked his guitar several times.
A total dud, but he didn´t want to use anything else.
Ruphus
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Date Feb. 24 2011 9:50:09
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