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RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!!
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ToddK)
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quote:
Ive never heard any flamenco's copying jazz. Who in particular are you talking about? Im baffled. You caused me to think this over a bit. I can't name any flamencos who are actually quoting jazz. But the harmonic procedures of many of the flamencos nuevos have a lot in common with jazz from the late 1940s onward. Adding 6ths, major 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and so on to basic chord structures was one common innovation in jazz. Chord substitution, like F#7th for C7th was another common procedure. In the early 1950s I wrote a few arrangements for my high school dance band (brass and woodwinds) exploring these procedures. I did my work at the piano. In fact, many of the innovative jazz players were listening to Stravinsky, Bartok and the like. The classical groups I played in didn't usually get much beyond Brahms, so I identified the "modern" harmony with jazz. So I glibly mentioned jazz as a source for the harmonic innovations of nuevo flamenco. I could just as well have cited Stravinsky, Bartok, Hindemith, et al. But the flamencos aren't copying extended phrases, at least not that I've heard. Just using similar harmonic procedures. RNJ
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Date Jan. 27 2011 18:18:44
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
IIRC it's in E flat so the tonic chord is played an octave above the rest of the chords in the progression. Gerardo is really clever with this sort of thing. Also, he included a ii, V, I chord progression in Jucal so the influence of jazz in this composition was obvious. ii, V, I is not exclusive to Jazz, and it didnt start in Jazz either. 11th, 9th, 13th chords are not "Jazz" chords. They are chords like any other chord. Flamenco uses harmonic minor scale ALOT. If i walked into a Jazz club and the guitarist was using a harmonic minor, i wouldnt say "Hey, he's playing flamenco influenced jazz!!" The guy has probably never even heard of flamenco. And i doubt Gerardo is a big Freddie Green, or Herb Ellis fan. They just happen to like some of the same chords, but use them in COMPLETELY different context. So no, Jucal has no connection to Jazz or Jazz harmony.
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Date Jan. 28 2011 0:08:51
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: Javier Conde Bulerias!! (in reply to ToddK)
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quote:
ii, V, I is not exclusive to Jazz, and it didnt start in Jazz either. 11th, 9th, 13th chords are not "Jazz" chords. They are chords like any other chord. Flamenco uses harmonic minor scale ALOT. If i walked into a Jazz club and the guitarist was using a harmonic minor, i wouldnt say "Hey, he's playing flamenco influenced jazz!!" The guy has probably never even heard of flamenco. And i doubt Gerardo is a big Freddie Green, or Herb Ellis fan. They just happen to like some of the same chords, but use them in COMPLETELY different context. So no, Jucal has no connection to Jazz or Jazz harmony. It’s not so much chords, but chord voicings that make a chord a jazz chord as opposed to just a 13th chord, etc. It’s the standardization of chords and chord progressions that define a genre. A Latin ii, V, I, for example, sounds quite different from the ii, V, I progression that’s common in the USA. Were there any instances of the ii, V, I progression in flamenco prior to the influence of jazz decades ago? Would people argue over the differences between old and modern flamenco if influences from other genres of music hadn’t made their way into flamenco? Context isn’t enough to explain away the similarity between the ii, V, I in Jucal and what is found in American jazz. Gerardo didn’t grow up in a vacuum.
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Date Jan. 28 2011 3:39:18
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