ear training - problem with timbre of guitar along other instruments

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apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

ear training - problem with timbre o...

Another day, another question...

I have been putting myself through rudiments of ear-training, mostly singing intervals and identifying random intervals within a two-octave range.

My comfortable singing range is from the G (6th string) to C (2nd string). Anything higher or lower really strains me. Since this is a very limited range, I am trying to rely on just recognizing the character of the interval sounds.

After some weeks of practice, I am seeing some good improvement on recognizing intervals, or even transcribing simple melodies by ear... but if, and only if the source is a guitar! If I try the same thing with source being a piano, base, or sax, then it all falls apart and I get very confused.

I think what has happened is that my ears are tuning into the timbre of guitar as well as intervals, so when that timbre changes, I have difficulty identifying the intervals.

Anyone else has had this challenge, or any ideas how to overcome it? I know some teachers recommend ear training on the piano, but then I suspect that by the time I am accustomed to the piano timbre, my ears will be useless to recognize the relative pitches on the guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:32:41

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

quote:

I have been putting myself through rudiments of ear-training, mostly singing intervals and identifying random intervals within a two-octave range.

Well, I can give you my best advice based on my own experience. I was a concert classical guitarist before I took up flamenco guitar, so I went through the whole nine yards of studying music theory, scales, intervals, harmony, counterpoint – you name it. You know what – when it came to flamenco I didn't have much use for any of it, with the exception of scales.

You didn't say why you want to do ear training in general, and interval study in particular, but this is a flamenco forum, so if this is intended to help you as a flamenco guitarist, I personally feel you would be a lot better off spending all that time studying – how to play flamenco guitar.

It's not that any of that will necessarily hurt you, though who knows, it's just that I don't see where it would help you, and in fact I feel it would hurt you in the sense that you will be spending a lot of time to no useful end with respect to flamenco guitar, time that could be used to work on technique, learning and creating material, etc. Just my feeling – assuming you are asking this in the context of studying flamenco guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 3:09:32

apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Hi PC, thanks for the post.

To clarify, yes, the point of doing this is definitely towards developing what I think I may have missed what children that grow up to be musicians get trained on at an early age. And in context of flamenco, I figured it helps with improvisation, learning by ear, etc etc

To be honest, I never questioned the wisdom of whether studying intervals is useful or not, I just do it, because I heard over and over and over and over again that this is what it takes to develop a good ear for relative pitch, and that having a trained ear is necessary for anyone that wants to develop with the goal of becoming a musician.

Sometimes it seems utterly useless and not fun at all, but again, I just drag myself through it like a humble student, trusting the common wisdom that it will eventually lead somewhere.

If someone came along and said great flamenco players or classical guitarists can't tell the difference between intervals, then I'll buy 'em a beer for having spared me hours of this boring stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 4:52:53

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

I know this isnt exactly what you asked, but generally this might help you to identify the intervals

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:08:35

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to aleksi)

i really like this approach of meorizing intervalls via melodies that you know from heart.
i think generally for any musician it should be no problem to identify octaves, primes, triads, fourths and fifths. the rest is is harder, i guess partly because they dont occur as much as the other intervalls.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 10:37:25

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

there is a software called .. EarMaster School ..
mm at_leo ( anthony ) mentioned it
I used it and its a cool software to assist your ear rhythmically and musically maybe you should try it .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 11:16:00

apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

quote:

mm at_leo ( anthony ) mentioned it
I used it and its a cool software to assist your ear rhythmically and musically maybe you should try it .

I have been using EarMaster software. It is really great, even has the option of singing the intervals with a microphone, and allows you change the instrument etc.

That's where I have the problem. If I chose guitar as the sound, and practice the intervals, I can learn them with some proficiency. But as soon as change the sound to another instrument, I have problem recognizing the intervals.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 17:49:37

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

hey apak,
yes, i used the earmaster program (thanks for reminding me about darkelie, i forgot about it :D) and i had a similar problem. just switch back and forth between the sounds often.

i stopped training my ear awhile ago when my old computer with the program crashed. it was sort of a relief because it was boring.

there must be something to it if so many musicians recommend it. but i think you can probably quicken your progress if you also try to transcribe stuff often. you get to put your ears to test and learn a new falseta at the same time. two birds with one stone!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 18:12:25

apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to at_leo_87)

I think EarMaster also has a melody transcription study module. That will help with that.

BTW, I found this trainer the other day, which I think lives up to it's claim that it is more of a "functional" ear trainer than just training with intervals.

The way it works is that it plays the cadence of any key that you choose, and then right after that it will play a random note within the key. Now the quiz asks you how many degrees away from the tonic note is the note that was just played. At first I think this is going to be very challenging. When I started using it, I was surprised. For each question, I started thinking: "In the context of the cadence of the key, how much is this single note just begging to resolve to the tonic?"... and from there I was answering things correctly. Perhaps my previous interval training helped with that.

Anyways, I recommend giving it a try. I can see how this kind of training has at least some direct musical application. The program is free:
http://www.miles.be/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2010 0:09:12

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

quote:

http://www.miles.be/

Thank you

It's really Interesting .. I will start using it

quote:

"In the context of the cadence of the key, how much is this single note just begging to resolve to the tonic?"

yes exactly . that's what I tried to do too , but it's not easy

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2010 4:33:46

apak

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to Elie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkElieDraven

quote:

http://www.miles.be/

Thank you It's really Interesting .. I will start using it

quote:

"In the context of the cadence of the key, how much is this single note just begging to resolve to the tonic?"

yes exactly . that's what I tried to do too , but it's not easy

it gets challenging... but maybe try it with your guitar in hand? If you know the scale, try guessing and playing the note on the guitar and play up or down to the tonic.

Anyways, I shouldn't be giving much advice, I'm not very adept.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2010 20:21:13

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

Ear training is super important. Keep it up and you will have the art of music in the palms of your hand.

Great advice Aleksi. Memorize the intervals by popular melodies that use them. Thats how I did it.

Do ear training with chords too starting with triads and continue on up through 13th and altered chords.

Its not your ear you are training its you brain..... "free yo mind and yo ass will follow"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2010 20:11:10

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: ear training - problem with timb... (in reply to apak)

heres a site for ear training. Melody singing and other stuff. For example this is nice exercise. I sang the solfa names to help recognizing the notes.
I only just found it but by first look its useful.
http://www.nuottila.info/2007/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=418&Itemid=27

and heres a game for learning the notes in the spirit of space invaders
http://www.jaydemusica.com/tutorial/
its perfect for the nintendo generation. It doesnt have so many levels but for a beginner it takes some time to slay the bigboss