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VietFlamenco

 

Posts: 140
Joined: Aug. 1 2010
 

How are you taught flamenco? 
Been taking flamenco guitar lessons for a good while now, and all i seem to be learning from my instructor is how to play a new piece each week while slowly building up techniques. I'm curious if this is how flamenco is normally taught to students. I feel like i'm missing out on certain aspect of my musical education by not covering any theory. Hell aside from being a able to read music playing whatever is written, I have no idea what scales/modes and all the other technical mumbo jumbo i see on these forums.

What are your thoughts? Should I continue to learn a new piece each week or should i go pursue a more well rounded education with another instructor?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:00:37
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
well I was taught CLASSICAL music that way also I was taught music-theory, reading music ,scales & mode in other classes
so IMO it's a classical way

about flamenco (answering ur ques) I'm a self taught player and I always studied technique and pieces separately .. my thought is -> learning a new piece each week will improve you slowly , you need to practice your technique separately and in parallel to that piece . so yea you need to have a wide knowledge about the different technical mumbo jumbo u see here so you can improve various techniques without stucking with the upcoming pieces you're goin to play

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:19:26
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
Tomatio was once asked the same question. He said that the key to good playing skills in flamenco guitar is just: Play as much as you can.

You dont need etudes or exercises if you practice falsetas seriously and enough.

1 week for a piece is too short. In flamenco you need to get the music in your body to be able to play it well. Its not enough just to remember the notes. And for that you need years or decades. Once you got in flamenco, you will be able to learn and play new pieces in a very short time. But to get there..its a pain in the ass.

Just practice seriously and have fun. Dont think too much.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:27:01
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
The lack of theory is not the problem – the problem is putting the cart before the horse. I don't think it's a good idea to be learning a new piece each week. The first thing I do with a beginner student is to start teaching him basic technique. You can't play any piece at all if you don't have the technique to play it properly. To try to learn technique by learning a piece makes no sense – it will retard the learning of both the piece and your technique.

Imagine someone trying to paint a picture without first learning perspective, composition, shading, the effect of color, mixing paint colors, and even how to hold a brush and properly execute a brushstroke. Art students are always first taught to do studies, exercises, sketches, etc., before they attempt a full painting. It seems obvious on the face of it.

It's the same thing. In my opinion you should first do basic technical exercises – scales to learn picado, arpeggios, thumb exercises, how to play bass and treble notes simultaneously, chords. You needn't spend forever at this, just a reasonable time to learn the basics. Then when you start learning a piece you will be able to play it without having to struggle due to inadequate technique, and at that point the playing of a piece will reinforce your technique.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:31:52
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
Yes, to get the basics, focusing on technique at first is right.


But you must see the point when you should switch on focusing on playing music and not playing a musical piece like a technical exercise in the end.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:40:30
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to Ramon Amira) 
Ramon,
I fixed your signature for you

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 17:57:18
 
Rob MacKillop

Posts: 65
Joined: Oct. 18 2010
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
Is my response too obvious? Ask your teacher...

I make my living by teaching guitar. All my students - no matter what style they are learning - learn theory, history, studies, exercises, pieces, in no particular order.

To take your teacher's side for a moment: maybe there is a reason he is holding back with the theory. Maybe you have technical issues he is trying to address. Maybe there is another reason.

To take your side: you want more than your teacher is giving you at the moment. You scan discussion groups on the net and find you don't understand what everyone is talking about, and feel you are missing out. So you blame your teacher.

Well, maybe there is a poor teacher, and maybe there is a poor student...Or not...

Really, just talk to your teacher about your concerns. If he won't address your issues without giving a good reason, then leave. But before doing that, ask him why he is teaching what he does, in the way he does it. You might learn something. But please remember one thing, none of the professional players learned by scanning news groups. That's not to say you can't learn things here or elsewhere, but no one here knows your playing as well as your teacher. Talk to him...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 18:31:56
 
gbv1158

 

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

In flamenco you need to get the music in your body to be able to play it well


this is the core ! and becuase this is true, as all forms of art you nead to fully possess the "tools" with wich to built the opera.
, I belive the tools in flamenco are technic and deep deep knowledge of keyboard.
One week for one piece ?... it is about of time spending on it! but with not powerfull "tools" it is difficolt to be involved with your body in this magic musical world. We have to remember that mostly of the time, the guitarrists we consider "maestro" even when they are young, have not less than then years of practicing! (when thy are not yet, sun of guitarrists!..... wich means to sleep IN A GUITAR insted of in a crib! :-) )

ciao,
giambattista
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 18:47:50
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
My teacher is very lazy. Always unprepared for lessons, he even forgets what we were doing the last time... what is he doing all the time? He has good compas but sometimes a lousy technique.. i could kick his ASS!!!

Im self taught by the way

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 18:50:04
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to Escribano) 
quote:

Ramon,
I fixed your signature for you


Thank you!

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2010 19:28:01
Guest

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
hi
have been playing for 40 years but my journey into flamenco is fairly recent...though have been a paco fan since the age of 14 so knew the 'sounds' of flamenco, just never ventured to far in to it until later in life...
saying this my mum sent me of to classical guitar lessons at the age of 8 so learnt to read music from an early age [ reading music has'nt really been of any help with learning flamenco except the under standing of rhythmic notation has been beneficial when working with tabs etc]
the classical experience made me understand the mechanics of the left and more importantly the right hand which helped with my flamenco studies to a certain degree though the two have different techniques, just some things cross over ie arpeggio's/ scales etc
in my teens ventured mainly into jazz, brazilian and tango music and stayed there for decades with some psuedo-flamenco-rhumba along the way

so i awoke from this half a decade ago and thought ' i love flamenco guitar...this is the final frontier for me as a player..have no fear..lets start again!!

i am fortunate enough as i have three awesome flamenco players in the small city i live in australia...
i have one teacher who i see most weeks to work on technique, compas and falseta's..my teacher is a good friend and very encouraging, positive and throws challenges at me all the time..This is important!! i also play in the dance class after our lesson...This is Vital!!! My main teacher has journeyed to spain frequently and continues to do so...
on other nights i connect up with one of the other players and just sit in the dance classes through the course of an evening..this is enjoyable, educational and always put's me on the spot..
as a result of all this i am able to provide a second guitar part as well as hold my own on occasions...so i score a few gigs while learning this art

other than that i read here at foro, you tube...source recordings and transcriptions and have had a couple of skype sessions with ricardo [guilt! wish i had more...!!]

this is how i'm learning as i really am trying to grasp the essence of flamenco, both in dance, song and the guitar as opposed to just learning techniques etc

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 0:58:30
 
Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

I belive the tools in flamenco are technic and deep deep knowledge of keyboard.


eh?
keyboard? do you mean fretboard?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 1:08:40
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
Ok, my experience with my teacher.

Eg
In the beginning, he would show me some arppegio excercises because I have never done fingerstyle before.
Then showed me the compas for solea. Then I'll go home practice that etc.

Then next time, he would show me and extension of the compas of solea with a simple arppegio falseta. then I'll go learn that for that week/fortnight/month (my lessons are not fixed)

Next time I'll see him, he'll teach me eg compas of tangos,
then maybe eg alzapua, then an excercise for alzapua.

then next week I'll get an falseta for tangos using alzapua and some appregiated falseta for tangos.

always if I'm shown a technique, he'll show me small excercise for it and then show me a simple falseta using it in the rhythm that I happen to be in.

He hasn't taught me any music theory, only in my last lesson he was telling me about finding eg G maj arppegio patterns then G maj7th etc.. just told me if i do this, it'll be helpful in my own creation of music in the future.. I still don't understand how it'll work, so I'll just sit on it for a bit.

As long as your teacher is giving you stuff for your level, and giving you music that helps that technique, then it's great.

so that's my experience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 1:30:15
 
stratos13

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
I think your teacher is showing you a nice way to go, if you allready have some experience with guitar.
All good players I have seen in my life had one thing in common. Large repertoire.
If you are a beginer, then only god knows how he makes up a piece per week to give you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 7:16:59
 
CarloJuan

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
it's such an envy and a pity on me part that you have all these flamenco teachers and i don't! haha.



flamenco teachers here are endangered species
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 7:51:46
 
gbv1158

 

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to Stu) 
I ment fretboard of course !( I have traslated the italian word " tastiera", often used to indicate the fretborard ).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 13:31:26
 
Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
This is a very simplified description, but I teach myself a lot of material.
Ill play in dance class, and if the teacher (40 years flamenco experience)
says "ole", then I keep that particular material in my repertoire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 15:08:29
 
fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
I have learned, am learning, utilizing Youtube, this foro, a couple of books (Juan Martin and Oscar Herrero), Jason's website, Google, and my own ears. My greatest tools are my ears and my microphone. I have also had some lessons from some good teachers, but I think that they served more for technique critique than anything else.

I really wish I could live in a flamenco environment, but the internet is my only resource right now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 17:49:23
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
Well I can't tell you how Flamenco is "normally" taught but in my 8 years of lessons I can tell you don't look at the learning as a destination, it should be a journey and continuum. I've felt the same exact way you did after about 2 years of study and I had a discussion with my instructor. He basically told me to not worry because if you stick with it and learn it, it will come. You know what? he was right.

Don't under estimate the amount of work it takes to learn this art form. I spent the first semester of lessons, which for me is 10-12 45 minute sessions learning basic right and left hand positions, body and sitting postions and Flamenco techniques. We worked on Farruca first if I recall and then on to Sevillanas and we only went forward when he thought my compas was good and it seemed I understood. No sense in learning 5 pieces wrong...

Overall don't judge your performance against others. Decide if you are happy and learning and if so stick with your instructor; if not then find another or go another direction. I played guitar for some years before finally following my dream of learning Flamenco, it has been extremely difficult but rewarding!!

Good luck and hang in there, you will be rewarded!
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 21:37:56
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to sig) 
What a good description Sig.

It makes me realize what the future has for me, and more precisely, how long this future of learning will be. I've only seriously started learning flamenco about a year ago and it is difficult. There are good times but there are bad times when progress is slow and worst, when at times I digress. I know that my main problem is haste, this is not like learning folk and learning a new song in half an hour.

I do have to focus on the journey and not the destination. There are no quick wins learning flamenco, it's hard work. It's good to see I'm not alone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2010 23:59:43
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
Yup, there are times I wonder why I still play when I get stuck on a particular piece or falsetta. There will always be good and bad times learning Flamenco. I enjoy both the challenge and the work involved in getting things figured out.

You're absolutely right, this isn't like learing a simple 3 chord folk or rock song where you can play a simple arrangement in 1/2 hour, it takes lots of time and effort to get it right and even then, most people won't even recognize what you're playing!

I can assure you, you're not alone!!
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2010 19:14:35
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How are you taught flamenco? (in reply to VietFlamenco) 
quote:

Been taking flamenco guitar lessons for a good while now, and all i seem to be learning from my instructor is how to play a new piece each week


Find another teacher or demand that this teacher actually teach you something. Don't be a parrot.... you have to learn to understand what you are playing, not just memorize stuff.

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http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 20:13:08
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