Need advice about pickups

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JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

Need advice about pickups

Hi, I've been learning flamenco along with classical for a few years and I'm new to pickups. I have a normal piezo but I'm saving for something that can pickup tapping but I don't know which one to get.

I've heard that mics feedback too easily and it's not recommended. Could someone give me some advice? Maybe to some good mics that don't feedback so easily or something? Are mic blends advisable?

My budget is around 100$-200$. Thanks.

Sorry,i deleted my post from the other topic because I've strayed a little from the topic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 16:32:10

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

My advice to pickups in flamenco: Don´t use them. Use a normal mic.

You would need an extra mic for golpes... And I dont remember any pickup that sounded good in flamenco. Its really a clear no go.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 21:39:14

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

My advice to pickups in flamenco: Don´t use them. Use a normal mic.

yeah i agree... only use pickups in flamenco if all else fails...u will never get the nice natural sound

for 100 - 200 u can get a half decent mic... look trough ebay

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 22:47:25

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

Shure SM57... Done...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 22:59:29

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

I've heard that mics feedback too easily and it's not recommended. Could someone give me some advice? Maybe to some good mics that don't feedback so easily or something?

I missed this part before...

they dont all feedback all the time...its mostly in extreme surroundings like super small rooms etc...and even then , not always ..but u shouldn't buy a pickup for flamenco unless everything else with a mic fails...and have had one of those combination between pickup and mic which u can mix between ..they a pain in the butt..and in the end u still end up using most of the microphone and almost none of the pickup cause you will prefer the sound

the most important thing and first thing to remember is that the mic is always facing away from the speakers and is behind them...that would solve most feedback problems..if it feeds back put the volume down a touch, sit a few centimeters further away from it.. experiment..better that then hating the gig cause u dont like the sound

......................the audience

Speaker ...............................Speaker

..................... Microphone

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:30:21

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

yeah, just make sure the amp is in the mic's blind spot. adjust the eq, sit a little further away from the mic. a good amp and a good mic will help you eliminate feedback.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 0:01:23

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

not a fan of pickups for any type of music involving a nylon string guitar
through the years i've had guitars fitted with b-bands and fishman, also with blending and the appropriate pre amps etc
always unhappy with the tone and response
so i now use a sennhieser K6 which has solved all those sound problems
i have a cheaper guitar fitted with a mini flex microphone system
http://miniflexmic.com/shop/
they can be either internal or external
recommend these as an alternative to a conventional microphone but i still default back to the condensor..
all the above is great advice..
good luck

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 1:43:00

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

have you compared the k6 to some other condensers, like the akg c1000s or rode nt3? which capsule do you use with it? I'm curious because there is one for sale at a reduced price. still a bit pricey though..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 10:00:25

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

Excuse my use of "normal mics" because that's all I've used before. I'm in no way equating professional mics to the common ones.

I actually also play some acoustic guitar tapping style songs like Drifting (just to name the most popular one) where the mic has to be quite far, I've tried it a normal (cheap, common) mic and it failed badly.

Last time I played, I had 2 normal mics pointing at my guitar and it didn't sound to good. I mean I'll be knocking all around the guitar.

When I mess around I usually try to combine percussions with sound, taken from what flamenco players and people like Tommy Emmanuel and Rodrigo y Gabriella and Maneli Jamal do. They knock all around the guitar body.

But if even internal mics aren't good enough I can accept that. I'm just trying to get what's best. Nylon guitars are still my absolute favourite and picking up harmonics is really difficult using the normal mics. I really enjoy most acoustic songs more on the nylon guitar.

So do you think the condenser mics can pickup what I want? I'm sure a few condenser mics would do it in this case but I'm really low on cash. The exchange rate here in Malaysia is currently RM3.11 to 1$.

Last time I tried a mic blend and turned on full mic volume, it immediately fedbacked. So I suppose the feedbacking problem is with the internal mics only?

Thank you for your help.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 14:44:57

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

Of course picking up harmonic tapping part may be really difficult since the tension is too low on nylon, but I guess I'm looking for an internal mic pickup if it's good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 15:18:19

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

quote:

. I mean I'll be knocking all around the guitar.

You could use a mic like that. You put it in the guitar. Then you can knock it around.

quote:

I actually also play some acoustic guitar tapping style songs like Drifting (just to name the most popular one)

I´m a flamenco nerd..sorry. I have no idea what Drifting is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 18:17:54

James Ashley Mayer

Posts: 115
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

I bought a cheap(ish) guitar, because I didn't want to have anything installed in my blanca. It's the Cordoba GK Studio. Simply pointing a mic at my guitar would never work because I am wanting to branch out and play in more non-flamenco settings. That means a lot of instruments including drumkits. I HATE the sound of piezo pickups, by the way.

The Cordoba has a pickup and an internal mic with a blend control between the two. I roll the treble of the pickup completely down and put the bass at 75%. I blend the mic in about about 65% mic to 35% pickup. The golpes sound great this way and all of the piezo quack is gone. The mic sounds way better than a pickup would, on it's own. This gets the sound of a mic with some real bass depth. So, essentially, I'm only using the pickup for bass and golpes.

It doesn't sound as pure as a mic pointed at the guitar from the outside, but I can get this setup to adequate volume with no feedback issues, so far.

I just wish it didn't have a cutaway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 18:50:56

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

.... -.-

I cant imagine what you mean with "knowing the guitar around". You mean like at rock festivals?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 19:20:07

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to mrMagenta)

yes
i had an nt3 before the sennhieser
the k6 has a much higher output and wider field
it was a bit of a no brainer in terms of upgrading, though the rode works well
the sennhieser was just a much better sounding mic with greater control
the output difference was quite outstanding
also greater frequency response
i'm using the cardiod cap
the akg c1000 i had used prior usually put in front of the guitar by a soundtech
sounded good but never A-B against the sennhieser
really happy with this microphone..totally
for live work or in the studio...sure there are others out there but this suited my needs perfectly..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 23:53:12

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

Thanks AlVal! This gives me something to think about. I'm torn between buying this one or to save for a DPA 4099. I think I need to make up my mind quick before it is sold.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 8:26:34

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

DPA 4099

excellent
the other guitarist i work with just bought the dpa
guess thats a hard choice
still prefer the mic on a stand...the movement between the 12th fret and soundhole allows me to use the mic for a variety of tones...i can vary this by slight body/guitar movement,,,,
few issues with the dpa falling off but is one great sounding mic...
good luck
i thought of the dpa but happy with the k6
just not a fan of things attached to the guitar
plus k6 has a much higher output..bit easier for me to control any feedback should it arise....
recently returned from a music festival the sound techs loved both...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 9:08:56

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Doitsujin)

Thank you for all your advice, I'm looking through every one.

What type/model of mic is inserted in the soundhole like this? I've seen Paco de Lucia using it before. If it's like that then wouldn't it like an internal mic too? Like a Mic blend at 100% mic, which, based on the ones I tried, fedback easily?

quote:

I cant imagine what you mean with "knowing the guitar around". You mean like at rock festivals?

No, I mean knocking like golpes but with more varieties of percussive sounds.

Like Gabriela (forgive them if they sound rough, they were from a trash metal band)

Here's an example of Maneli Jamal, playing something which can very well be done on a nylon guitar. Don't recall seeing a steel string player ever doing good (to me) tremolo with excellent tone control.

Here's one with knocking

What I like about him is that he doesn't do chorus-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus. He does it like a movie soundtrack, like classical music almost in structure.

I guess I should be asking him too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 14:48:36

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

I would very gladly and passionately provide more links to of different people doing something like this. (which will not include Andy Mckee or more Candyrat since they do too much ABABCAB though, which puts them in a different league as compared to some I have in mind, though he is definitely good.)

What brought me here is that I am absolutely in love with bulerias, and flamenco as a whole of course :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 14:52:10

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

thanks for the links..
nice sounds...
going back to your original question about the pick ups etc
guess if your into these techniques on a nylon string there is nothing out there in your price range
the video has a taylor guitar which is equipped with a piezo, and a internal mic and 2 transducers attached to the soundboard...or some variation upon this...
plus the pre amp, compression and phase inversion..
thats a $1000 worth of pick up and preamp...
my suggestion would be a b-band system which matches the taylor system to a large degree...
http://www.b-band.com/index.php?page=guitar-systems

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 5:09:27

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

Thanks but noooooooooooooo that's terrible news. I have a lot of reading to do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 11:27:02

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

What if I don't need to imitate his sound but just be able to pickup the percussions?
Could you round it down to what I need? I don't think preamps and other after effects are important.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 14:50:18

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

I bought the K6 with ME64 capsule. I haven't had time to test it other than to see that it works. I tried it through headphones and my initial feeling is that it reproduces the guitar sound nicely even when playing very softly, and the field isn't too narrow so it's still comfortable to play in front of it. The self noise is a bit higher then on my cheapish large membrane condenser microphone. Will try it out properly in the days to come.

Thanks AlVal for the recommendation!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 19:21:18

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

I agree with AlVal about the k6 - I bought one second hand about 10 years ago, and have used it constantly. I pretty much only use the cardoid head, so you could probably save money getting the equivalent mike without interchangeable heads, not sure what the model number for that is. It beautifully catches the bright high register of a flamenco instrument. With PAs at some venues the liveliness of the high end can be a problem, but can be fixed with E.Q., and it's much better than having no brightness at all.

Dynamic mikes (such as SM57) in my experience turn everything into a dull thud - with the right system they may work. For a budget set up I would go for a cheaper condenser mike rather than a dynamic mike or pickup - even a $30 tie mike dropped in the sound hole will give a better sound than pickups, at least the one's I've tried.

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www.guitarsketches.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 23:41:47

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

quote:

Could you round it down to what I need?

hey jiexian
I think a good condensor mic...
if the budget is limited look at the rode range of microphones http://www.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT3
or
http://www.tag.com.au/component/option,com_acat/method,product/id,164/
both of these should fall in or close to your budget
sorry to bring the bad news on the pricing
think all of us here have had sound issues for a while so alot of searching was done [ and i imagine quite a few $$$ ]
BEST OF LUCK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 0:43:03

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

I bought the K6 with ME64 capsule.

excellent
let us know your thoughts...
for me it was a relief to find a mic i can use live without having any real issues

enjoy

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 0:53:02

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

Please don't be sorry for teaching me so much. I never heard of phase inversion and being able to tell so much from a video is really not what I can do.

Anyways Maneli Jamal (the guy in the link) suggested Fishman Rare Earth (soundboard + mic). Do you have any opinions about its sound on a nylon?

Just in case, I'm not trying to be difficult by constantly asking about other stuff after being clearly told to get mics, but merely trying to learn enough to make a good decision, and I'm very open, especially since all I have is a piezo pickup.

I really don't know what to think, every acoustic guitar forum i read about internal mic pickups scream and warn about feedbacks, and the AER and Fishman blends i tried feedsback too... I'm confused, would an external 30$ mic put into a soundhole be so much better? It seems counterintuitive to me.

I'm not trying to be difficult but it's just that guitarists from 2 different worlds are saying the complete opposite thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 4:56:20

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

hi
the soundboard mic/transducer plus piezo will provide a 'big' sound..so the best of both worlds...
but
me personally find it not a great tone for flamenco and other styles
great if your into loud ensemble playing or high energy type of thing
as a luthier once suggested to me
dont worry about a great guitar if your using piezo type system because that's not what your going to hear...
so i have a cheaper guitar with two internal microphones out of phase with each other...in simple terms this acts as a feedback eliminater...to a certain degree...
this is more appealing than a piezo...for me anyway...but i hardly use this guitar..only for loud rhumba/salsa bands...
but
i generally use a high quality condensor through a mackie 2 channel desk into a aer then into a front of house system...no pickup...no onboard anything
i dont have feedback issues
are you pointing the mic in front of the soundhole?...this is a certainly going to produce feedback and no definition

in terms of the fishman it sounds like a good recommendation if that is the sound your after
good system...like the B-band
but your guitar will sound like a fishman or a b-band...less of the guitar more of the electronics/product...this is'nt bad, just different..like the gabriella and rodrigo sound...generic but still big...
microphones present more of the guitar...IMO
saying all this
there are'nt alot of choices
fishman/b band/miniflex/lrbaggs as internal mic/pickup combo's...much and much the same...

Aloysius's point was that a cheaper lapel type mic is a preferred sound than a piezo...i tend to agree in terms of tone..for flamenco anyway...

if you have a piezo already you have two clear choices
internal microphone/transducer to blend with piezo..but you WILL need a preamp that will handle the two signals...ie blending/phasing and balance...
or
my choice would be
a condenser microphone pointed at the 12th fret [give or take a few] or at the bridge...
two separate channels into an aer or pa...and blend away..piezo and mic...
that way you have a great mic if you upgrade the guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 7:07:08

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

Thanks. Relating Rodrigo and Gabriella cleared up a lot of confusion. Their live always sounded a little rough and artificial - not that of a nylon.

quote:

are you pointing the mic in front of the soundhole?.

The mics I've used which fedback were mic blends, they are installed inside the guitar.

quote:

so i have a cheaper guitar with two internal microphones out of phase with each other...in simple terms this acts as a feedback eliminater...to a certain degree...

So does this mean that internal mics don't produce good sound even though they are still mics?

Actually I'm trying to sell my guitar with the piezo to buy a new one that doesn't come with pickups.

(I'm selling it because I bought it cheap in the first place and I'm getting a China guitar that sounds like a guitar that's 4 times the price.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 7:40:21

Guest

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to JieXian)

quote:

So does this mean that internal mics don't produce good sound even though they are still mics?

maybe not the sound you want
generally no
because we hear guitars from the outside not the inside..the air moves differently
or
they create a feedback chamber
generally there to warm the piezo up...
the out of phase aspect with mini flex mics [ie 2 mics] corrects this to a large degree but there will be feedback...so set the level to that point....where it still sounds good...dont go any further...!!!
external mics are the best option...IMO

the other thing of course is if your dealing with 60watts as opposed to 300watts of amplification the headroom difference plays a huge part...

Quiet is the NEW loud........Good luck!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 7:57:43

JieXian

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 8 2010
From: Malaysia

RE: Need advice about pickups (in reply to Guest)

Thank you very much. Though complicated, your explanation about the mic makes sense. I'm not so confused anymore.

Then I'll have to look for something than clips on, because I don't tend to sit very still. I'm sure someone mentioned something about it.

Hold on ... what about Aloysius' recommendation, the mic that's put into the soundhole? Would it fall under the same category as this and have the same characteristics?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 15:44:09