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RE: The most difficult rasgueo?   You are logged in as Guest
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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to James Ashley Mayer) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ashley Mayer
I guarantee that the audience will love it unless they are a bunch of flamenco guitar experts.


It is my secret hope that with each concert the (flamenco and non-flamenco) audience gets a little more sensibilized towards flamenco so that in perhaps 20, 50, 100 years, the good stuff has replaced the shallow stuff, because there is no demand for it anymore. With that i mean all kinds of "flamenco" shows, of which this "circus" usage of this technique is only a small representative, but there are worse examples of course on YouTube, which i wont post here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 19:27:16
 
James Ashley Mayer

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

It is my secret hope that with each concert the (flamenco and non-flamenco) audience gets a little more sensibilized towards flamenco so that in perhaps 20, 50, 100 years, the good stuff has replaced the shallow stuff, because there is no demand for it anymore. With that i mean all kinds of "flamenco" shows, of which this "circus" usage of this technique is only a small representative, but there are worse examples of course on YouTube, which i wont post here.


Are you suggesting that the use of the technique in that Juan Martin Granaina is too showy and illegitimate in some way? I don't think anything that you can control and make into music should be considered a gimmick. Tremolo would be just as gimmicky, no? What about extended legatos? It's not like he's wearing spurs and slamming symbols between his knees.

Also, I thought I mentioned it already, but I have the iai iai and pai rasgueos pretty much down. They are definitely two of the easiest to learn well by counting in 4s with a metronome. When really warmed up, I can use pmp in a long smooth roll. However, I mostly use it for quick bursts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 20:11:48
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
i was referring to the usage in the Sabicas video. And on a broader scale i saw it in context of shows, which have a more mimicry/circus character than performing flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 20:22:42
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
I cant belive... here is talked about Juan Martin and nobody freaked out yet... lol!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 20:40:40
 
James Ashley Mayer

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
"I cant belive... here is talked about Juan Martin and nobody freaked out yet... lol! "

Because we all know, despite his not being a "top tier" player, that the intro to that granaina was badass.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 20:48:10
 
orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Pimientito) 
quote:

Check out Rafael Cortes...this is in my opinion the most amazing rasgueo in the flamenco world today.


This is the rasgeo attributed to El Nani that the cano roto guys use, El Vejin uses it alot.
I am currently working on this after meeting a guitarist from seville who also uses it and it sounds great. I've been at it two weeks it's coming along, I can tell I will use it alot once I've got it down.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2010 21:14:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to James Ashley Mayer) 
For me Cepero had one of the most strong ripping rasgueados that he always does the same, iup, ami down. That's all it is but fast and the up stroke on the beat really gives it tons of bite. More then what a lot of other people do IMO, or even others that use the same technique. You can see him do it here many times for the 7-10 counts of bulerias, but I have heard him do it for several compases straight and it rips your head off. 3:42 has a good view of it:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 1:24:33
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
Yeah, in Jerez (Manuel Morao, Parrilla and others) there's a continuous rasgueado in bulerías that can go on for an entire compás (12 beats) or more. I think it's fingered i-a-m-i like Ricardo says, although some of the younger players might do it differently (just speculating). I've only seen it done a few times, and I get the idea that it's going out of fashion. I agree that it'll "rip your head off." The abanico rasgueados (with thumb upstroke) would seem to be ideal for this kind of continuous rasgueado, and I was surprised to see it done without the thumb.

I have big problems articulating abanico rasgueados that don't include a thumb downstroke (q-a-i), but the q-a-i-p fingering in the Rafael Cortés video comes easily. Another really hard one for me is e-a-m-i-i three times around over beats 6-10 in bulerías. Like this:

beat 6: e-a (eighths)
beat 7: m-i-i (triplet)
beat 8: e-a-m-i (sixteenths)
beat 9: i-e-a-m-i (quintuplet)
beat 10: i (upstroke)

With the slow start it loses a lot of bite, but might be good as a way to create mood between cantes and/or falsetas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 8:17:58
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:


For me Cepero had one of the most strong ripping rasgueados that he always does the same, iup, ami down. That's all it is but fast and the up stroke on the beat really gives it tons of bite.



I agree Ricardo. I can listen to Cepero accompany all day. Best accompanist of his era imo. His tientos rhythm is really inspiring as well.

Deniz,

I think you are describing the inevitable evolotion of flamenco guitar. Just as athletes continue to improve with easier access to knowledge, improved technology and knowledgeable teachers etc..., so will flamenco guitar.

All techniques are valid if they are played in a way that creates a nice phrase or rhythm. It is when they don't that there is a problem. This applies to all techniques of all eras so i don't think there is any need to separate the old and the knew.

The musicians interpretation and expression is what draws me in. Old style or modern

Juan martin did not have access to all the musical influences, ideas, teachers, technique when he was learning like we do. And i guess for him the style of his time is his favorite. My father is like that.

Listening to grisha play JM stuff when he was a kid is amazing!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2010 10:12:37
 
Bman

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 30 2010
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to James Ashley Mayer) 
My teacher just worked with me on this. He explained that you extend your pinkie, then your a, then return BOTH a and p to starting position at the same time while extending m then i. He says that is the only way to do it evenly without a pause because of the way the muscles in the hand work. REALLY hard at first but with slow practice it starts to fall into place. And it sounds MUCH better than adding the i upstroke IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2010 0:32:08
 
minordjango

 

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to XXX) 
I would use iai iai or paipai...which means tits in Japanese by the way. What a damn coincidence! Flamenco is so perverted! hahaha

thats why flamenco really took off in japan amigo

i have this new J.montoya methods 4 dvd set guittraa flamenco in in 48 classes - jose manuel montoya .

he advocates using p (up) c(down) i (down) - in various rhythms , it doesnt work for me , anyone else seen it in other players ? or know of alternatives?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2010 7:53:07
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to minordjango) 
quote:

he advocates using p (up) c(down) i (down) - in various rhythms , it doesnt work for me , anyone else seen it in other players ? or know of alternatives?


p (up) c/a/m (down) i (down)

How long have you practise it, and at what tempo?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2010 11:22:49
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to James Ashley Mayer) 
quote:

Does anyone have any tips for getting this one down?


Yes. Carlos Ramos taught this trick to me. And it IS a trick. Here it is:

The trick is to practice moving your pinky and your index in opposite directions at the same time. You don't need a guitar for this. Practice it while you're watching tee vee. When you straighten your index, bring the pinky back toward your palm at the same time, then do the reverse (straighten pinky, bend i at the same time. While you work on making this movement natural you can ignore a and m. Let them do what they will. Concentrate on i and e.

once that movement is natural, then do the rasgueado, eami but when you get to i, do this movement you have been practicing at the end. This puts e in position in time to start the next cycle without a pause, so it sounds continuous.

What am I saying. It IS continuous. As continuous as the strength of your e finger will permit.

This is much more tiring than many of the easier more "modern" continuous rasgueados, and you will find that trying to do it continuously for too long will tire you very quickly, which leads to a galloping effect. But it is the only rasgueado that truly repeats the same downstroke sound continuously (that is, without interspersing an upstroke, which really does sound different). It strengthens the pinky, too, thus improving your other rasgueados.

When you are new to this technique, one place to do it very effectively is to play only 2 cycles with a thumbstroke on either side to make triplets on the 7-8-9-10 beats of bulerias. Do an upstroke of p on 7, then eamieami, followed by a downstroke of p on 10. It is very powerful there, and you only have to do concentrate through two cycles.

I find that many of the same people who dismiss this technique as "old fashioned" are the ones who haven't been able to master it. Techniques aren't old fashioned. If that were the case, picado would be a "stone age" technique. It is music that is subject to the whims of fashion, not technique.

Let me know how you progress. Ramos taught me a bunch of tricks like this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2010 1:40:45
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