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Most rasgueos have come pretty easily to me. None of them are perfect, but I can see steady improvement when I put the practice time in. However, the "all down" continuous rasgueo using pinky, ring, middle, index, repeat just has clicked with me.
It occurs at around 2:12:
I've also seen Juan Martin use it in a much more forceful manner.
Does anyone have any tips for getting this one down? If I throw in the linking up-stroke, there's no problem, but it just doesn't sound the same. I can get closer with a-i-i.
Paco Peña showed me a way of doing continuous rasgueado (with no "pulse" beat), by starting with i down, a, m, i, i(up) repeat....(add pinky if you want to) (He does it in the Soleares from his first album) He said Sabicas had been over at his house in London and was totally in awe of the experience since he had studied his stuff as a kid!
(Sabicas also showed him some stone age relics he'd found outside his cave when he was a kid too! )
Its used in Seguiriyas but here it sounds very uneven i must say. True its used very rarely (mainly today in Seguiriyas) and you dont need it, but when its done right it sounds good and has its own sound which you cant emulate with aii or pmp type rasgeados.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
well, people have different tastes. many don't like this shrammmm shrammmm rasgueso anymore, specially using pinky, as they see it as a waiste of time and energy.
anyway, my uncle likes this and he practiced this continous pinky, ring, middle, index rasgueso a lot and it was extremely accurate after a while (without hearing the little pause which you have when you start to practice this)
I do work on the other rasgueos but I'd like to find one that has a nice soft roll to add dramatic to different parts. Not worried about compas on this one. Right now the best one I have for this is the a-i-i that is very commonly used. It is a different sound. I've seen Paco Pena do the "stone age" rasgueo and it sounds awesome. Also, don't kill me for this, but I've seen Juan Martin do it nicely as well.
I'd also like to add that I'm immune to the modern vs traditional argument. I like a bit of both. Sabicas and that generation still have plenty to teach us. I think there are far more lame players in the current generation. I blame jazz.
Well,...in past they all played exactly the same.. To be lame was almost not possible. ^^ I blame jazz, too with a few exceptions..
Juan Martin.. the first compositions I learned were from his white book with red title. So... he was my starter! Then much Sabicas stuff and later on workshops and now current players... such a long way..
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
I suppose it is true that they all sort of sounded the same. Paco Pena is one of my favorites. I love everything about his playing but I can really tell you what he did that hadn't already been done.
Mariano Cordoba did the four finger all down continous better than anyone I ever heard. He could do it soft, loud, in compas, whatever. When he wanted to get maximum volume, he add the thump up first and have a continous five stroke. Both are very difficult to get sounding even. I could never equal his execution despite years of trying.
It may be from the stone age, but I'd love to be able to do it as well as he did it. Many times he'd use it to close a piece and it got the crowd every time. Every bit as powerful as Marote's in his prime IMO. I don't see the harm in knowing many different ones, but think the execution of whichever one's you use is so much more important than which one you choose. With everyone doing the new ones today, it would be cool to see a guy do those old ones as well as the cavemen who did them 60 years ago.
I have to add, that after watching the vid, can say that Mariano did that ras so much better than that example-really he had that down. He had the utmost respect for Sabicas-they were friends, and I know he didn't have the technique that Sabicas had, but on that ras, he far exceeded that example. James, the only thing I can tell you is that his fingers moved very little when doing it and as you watched his knuckles, they were moving as evenly as a machine. I think his pinky was retracting well before the index went down, making it ready to strike, and possible to do it evenly. Of course there's the old trick of counting to five while playing four strokes, which causes each stroke to be the "one" That helps a great deal to create an even sound.
" James, the only thing I can tell you is that his fingers moved very little when doing it and as you watched his knuckles, they were moving as evenly as a machine. I think his pinky was retracting well before the index went down, making it ready to strike, and possible to do it evenly. Of course there's the old trick of counting to five while playing four strokes, which causes each stroke to be the "one" That helps a great deal to create an even sound. "
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how I work on it. It's tough to keep the right hand relaxed and it tires out quickly. It's just not as intuitive as the misc other versions that I've learned. It is the ONLY rasgueo that I've really given any effort that uses the pinky. That's probably the issue.
I use this rasqeo, and I like it. The thing about this one is that it wears out the muscles on the back of your hand very quickly. You have to build up strength to do it. Also pay attention to not extend the fingers to much- you dont want wasted movement.
Well,... nobody except weird flamenco wannabes use it anymore. Now we have other, better kinds of rasguados which make this technique unnecessary.
Just forget this stone age rasguado.
James,
One of our esteemed colleagues offered you the advice quoted above. You should take it as only an opinion, not as ground truth. In fact, some of us use the four-finger down rasgueado and like it very much, and we are not "weird flamenco wannabes." We just happen to like some of the older techniques referred to as "Stone Age." There are those who think that the newer rasgueos are the only worthwhile ones, and there are those who believe with equal intensity that the faster one performs picado, the better it is. This is all nonsense. A newer rasqueo and a lightning fast picado can be very good indeed, but neither necessarily makes a flamenco performance better. Like so much else in life, it is all a matter of opinion.
Cheers,
Bill
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RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to BarkellWH)
hehe i missed this ...missed watching Doit...getting himself in trouble with one liners
dont take too much offence and dont take him too seriously, hes partly joking i think...i am sure part of the reason hes says is to get a reaction
whatever sound you need and whatever effect u want or hear in your head...and however you can get there...even if you need to invent one yourself...go for it...if it works...mission accomplished
afterall thats how the flamenco rhythm was invented.....the player hears a effect in his head first then finds the finger combination that will mimic that
Does anyone have any tips for getting this one down?
The "all down" is a very good rasgueado, but not an easy one to master. The best one I have heard besides Sabicas is Juan Serrano, who does IXAMIXAM etc. With respect to learning this one, Serrano's advice is to practice it slowly as follows:
Strike with I, then before you do anything else, bring I back up into playing position. Then strike in order with X-A-M. Then before you strike again with I you quickly bring X, A, and M all back up together into playing position. Then repeat the cycle. You have to do this slowly to avoid the break between I and X when you get it up to tempo.
My additional advice is to do this with a metronome with one stroke per click, and gradually increase the tempo. That way you can never increase the tempo prematurely, because you never practice it faster than you can play it without a break between I and X.
The other player who does this extremely well is Juan Martin. He does XAMIXAMI etc., but that's really just the same thing. You can play some nice continuous rasgueado passages for example in Granadinas, which is what he does here.
Its a great rasgeado if you master it perfectly. How I train it is not by flicking it of the finger but with loose fingers. In the video is the first, than the second part. Excuse me for it is not even, because I just woke up and just have had a half a cup of coffee. But it needs to flow as in the last part.
I believe castagnette players have the same issue, but instead of the fingers going outward, they need to go inward.
A good exercise is doin a non-flicked rasgeado with x-a-m-i-x-a-m-i, you train other muscles than with flicked.
I am not even nearly there, but I liked the granaina from JM also the ways he plays the intro.
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
Well,... nobody except weird flamenco wannabes use it anymore. Now we have other, better kinds of rasguados which make this technique unnecessary. Just forget this stone age rasguado.
you are such a sweet guy! Flamenco is an art, so why not take those "stone age" techniques as a givin present, and use it as you like. If not, thats fine, if you want to learn it, thats great!
Ok.. maybe not necessarily flamenco wannabes use that.. Lets say also old-scholars..Thats very ok... I will also still listen to the music I listen to now, when Im old.. I see no problem there. And the young people in future will call my music stone age.. Its always the same, isn´t it? :-)
With wannabes I meant the weird guys who use that in TV shows together with hectic slamming on the guitar and some rumbastrumming that does not make sense. They usually call this malaguena... And they look like old Mc Donald .. the one with the moo moos and wow wows... You remember Sedlack? ...like this guy. :-) So I meant not-normal people who like to use it. Just some morons who appear in TV pull the image of that technique down from time to time.
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
So I meant not-normal people who like to use it. Just some morons who appear in TV pull the image of that technique down from time to time.
So its ok but outdated
when did you become so diplomatic and politically correct ? ...thats sweet
so if you just a normal person and use it for everyday use around the house its ok but if you go to Tv with it... ..LOL!...more importantly ...did you just call Sabicas a moron ?
funniest thing is ...i know exactly what u mean but i enjoy watching you take the worst path there every time ...cmon dont go...defuse the situation some more
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
The other player who does this extremely well is Juan Martin
Ole to JM from Orson for that Granaina intro rasgeo, he does have his moments.
I never use my X finger anymore, I used to por segyirias but now use other rasgeo. I prefer a harder sound. I use whatever works best for me in a given situation and there are so many ways to play rasgeo. I think this is what helps gives players their own torque, everyone does things slightly different.
Critic, that's exactly the clip I was thinking of when I mentioned Juan Martin in my earlier post. He also throws it in on a buleria somewhere and it sounds great. I think I could find a lot of uses for that sound. I guarantee that the audience will love it unless they are a bunch of flamenco guitar experts. :)
I used the Juan Serrano method you described, last night. I set my metronome to increase by 2 bpm every four bars. Went from 50 bpm all the way to around 300. At one stroke per click, that's still pretty slow. I'll do this again a few more times and decide if it's worth pursuing. Right now, it feels like the first technique that has defeated me.
I set my metronome to increase by 2 bpm every four bars. Went from 50 bpm all the way to around 300.
I guarantee you if you stick with it this technique will not defeat you. I have successfully taught it to complete beginners.
I don't understand what you mean when you say that "I set my metronome to increase by 2 bpm every four bars. Went from 50 bpm all the way to around 300." You can't increase the tempo every four bars. The whole idea is to slowly train your fingers in the pattern. So you have to take your time with this, and stay at the same slow tempo for a certain period of time.
I would suggest starting at 100 bpm and staying there for a good while. That way your fingers can slowly absorb the pattern. There's no hurry. Any technique worth learning is worth taking some time. The biggest mistake you can make is trying to increase the tempo too fast too soon. 300 bpm is way too fast for something that you have just started practicing.
The metronome I'm using is an iPhone app that lets you configure the bpm to increase by Xbpm every X bars. It's very effective and you stay at very slow speeds for 3-4 minutes before you really feel like you are speeding up.
The thing is, I can do this rasqueo easily at 100 bpm. It feels like fighting boredom and attention span rather than having to put in any physical training effort until I was over 200 bpm.
Ok, I'll stick to 100 bpm for a while. What I'm doing now isn't working, even though it's worked great for other techniques. I guess I'm not all that patient.
OK…here is a tip. Hold your hand palm up so you can see your fingers move. Move your fingers slowly out (don’t load them) starting with the little finger. The trick is to have the little finger back into position before the index finger is extended. The fingers come back to the palm in the order they extend. Little first, ring, middle, index. If the little finger is not back into position soon enough you will never get it smooth. Start out ultra slow.
You know you can do it. You saw me do it years ago when we met and I’m old and shot!
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Doitsujin, what method do you prefer for a long continuous rasgueo? One that can smoothly stretch across multiple chords like in the JM granaina clip that Critic posted.
RE: The most difficult rasgueo? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
With wannabes I meant the weird guys who use that in TV shows together with hectic slamming on the guitar and some rumbastrumming that does not make sense. They usually call this malaguena...
Great thread guys @James - I think Doit is trying (rather clumsily) to say that this is an older technique that only works today in Spain if its played really well as in the Juan Martin Video. Its not a technique you hear used very much by younger players any more and frankly to swing your hand wildly between the bridge and fingerboard in the middle of a malagueña can come across as being a bit "fake" for want of a better word. The biggest problem is that if its done unconvincingly you are going to end up looking like Chevy chase in the clip below
The modern rasgueos have a different sound its true but also a lot more control and power. Check out Rafael Cortes...this is in my opinion the most amazing rasgueo in the flamenco world today.
Doitsujin, what method do you prefer for a long continuous rasgueo? One that can smoothly stretch across multiple chords like in the JM granaina clip that Critic posted.
is not so much a question of which one but how good you get at it and practice it...a good number of them can do that if you practice it alot and get good control....u can even do it with 2 fingers
if i needed continous unaccented rasqueado i would do Thumb up M down I Down Thumb Up....if i needed more rythm, power and evenes to it i would do the same but replace the M with A...etc.
many have personal favorites and many achieve the same effect using different fingers from having built good control at it
besides the appearance the practical reason why its not a good idea to do those and move up and down to the 12th fret etc..is because it leaves your right hand in no mans land and takes a while to get back into playing position IMO...so that's a little limiting in that sense...then u have to bring it back down and readjust...or replant your thumb....might sound easy enough but the idea is to minimize movement and make your job easier not harder....little things like this become huge things when you play a difficult piece where every movement matters ...little distances become huge obstacles
However i have never used that technique so i am just making an estimation...but the more you move your right hand away from its usual playing zone the further it has to travel back...but again if its no problem for you and u can do what u need to do with it...go for it
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) 
And they look like old Mc Donald .. the one with the moo moos and wow wows... 
.... That's girlie stuff! 
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