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Puro or Nuevo Flamenco?
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[Poll]
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Puro or Nuevo Flamenco?
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| Puro |
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| Nuevo |
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| More Puro |
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| More Nuevo |
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| Equally Both |
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Total Votes : 35
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(last vote on : Dec. 7 2010 17:07:40)
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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 RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to gounaro)
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Well all this sh*ttalk is related to the (old and IMO outdated) question, whether you have to suffer or not to do arts. There was one guy i dont know if this documentary or another one, who said that in past people would suffer from hunger and only then you could do flamenco. These kind of views. Art or culture should be for good. It is for expressing your feelings (positive or negative), and not let yourself torture by feelings. It is obvious, at least to me, that these kind of views, are ideologies about what art is, but not the truth. They are "interested views" of people living either in poverty (kind of belittling their situation) or have something against new age.
Another point is, i think there is some basic respect towards the old, and an unproportional higher demand from the young in the spanish culture. Like no matter what the old guy does he always gets bonus points and olés for simply being old, but the young guy has to play at least like PdL or he gets no attention.
Having said all that, man i have nothing against traditional things! Its all good stuff. But i would never impose my tastes on somebody else, or call it unflamenco when it BOTH is an EQUALLY valid part of flamenco.
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Фламенко
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Date Sep. 22 2010 16:05:08
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
New stuff does not negate old stuff IMO.
100% agree. I never get when people say modern is evolving away from flamenco. No. Modern stuff includes old stuff. Every modern player can play old stuff, its the natural way to learn. What they do with their own music, where they get their inspirations from (maybe other genres, other chords etc ) is another thing. Meaning "how far" they are departureing from the basics, is their own decision. Listen to the Solea on LuZia by PDL for example... very modern (more than some of the recent stuff), but still you can hear its a solea.
I also agree that traditional stuff, if its not super old, probably draws more attention than the new stuff, because it hits the average taste of flamencos and aficionados more. But i would be careful whether i would choose my tastes after what others feel would be good toque or guitar music. Many people dont even know much modern recordings (or dont care about guitar), because they think its jazz or too complicated or something^^. So there are all kinds of reasons why people in average prefer the "normal" stuff (not too old, not too modern).
You can like old and modern for different things, its no wonder to me because they ARE different styles. So these discussions about flamenco not being flamenco anymore surprise me a bit. Why not respect both, and let them co-exist for just a second? 
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Фламенко
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Date Sep. 22 2010 21:09:54
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Munin
Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong
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RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to gounaro)
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I watched that documentary and I have to say I completely understand some of the sentiments expressed by those gitanos. I am the last person to hate "nuevo" stuff, in fact that's what I listen to most of the time (and some of it would probably make some people cringe here...) but somehow, I don't know, I think I understood what they meant - that something about flamenco is getting lost, because it's more and more just about technique, and complicated compositions and so on. I like what one of the guys said in the car, referring to players like Canizares and Vicente, he said "I like listening to them, but I wouldn't like to learn from them" - that's of course taking it too far. But somehow, I can understand and respect that attitude.
These days it's very often just about one-upping each other, more technique, adding orchestras, doing all kinds of fusion things, and while I listen to that stuff myself and like it, I think I can still understand what they mean. One of them said these days flamenco comes out of chemical laboratories, and yeah it certainly seems that way to me often as well.
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Date Sep. 22 2010 23:22:12
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (in reply to gounaro)
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quote:
Art or culture should be for good.
I agree with that, but I suppose that anyone who plays the guitar to feed their children will have a "hard" attitude about suffering and discipline.
quote:
i think there is some basic respect towards the old...
It's a big part of their culture.
quote:
Each generation's nuevo is the next generation's puro. quote:
Music needs the test of time...and the old stuff has stood it IMO.
Well, it sounds nice to try to say it in just a few words, but both statements fall short of being accuarate, IMO. As you both know, what really happens is that only some things get passed on and become tradition. Who plays like the ricardistas nowadays? Depending on the case, it could be good or bad that some things aren't played today. I wish guitarists accompanied like Melchor, but I'm glad they aren't outplaying the singer like Montoya. I wish they played a little stronger like Marote, but I'm glad they aren't as brutish as some of the old-school players.
quote:
Every modern player can play old stuff
They used to hit the strings harder in general, and sometimes (like in Morao's bulerías) that requires a different kind of strength and endurance. Most of today's guitarists would probably have a hard time playing like Marote.
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Angel Alvarez Caballero, Eusebio Rioja, and Jose Blas Vega...
Norberto Torres is a flamenco guitarist and much more of an authority than the others, although you never know what people will find in a library or archive.
http://www.tristeyazul.com/suena_guitarra/confgf.htm
quote:
>is the guitarist from the Casa Patas logo...
It's taken from the cover of the Magna anthology. I don't know how old that drawing is, but I don't think it's supposed to be El Planeta. I've seen two drawings that are supposed to represent El Planeta. One is here
http://www.horizonteflamenco.com/pagina.php?n=fillo
and the other is in Mundo y Formas.
quote:
do we know the name of the first guitarist on record known as a flamenco guitarist ?? how far back are the guitarists names documented ? and who and in what year was the first one we know of?
The oldest recordings are cylinders that were made just around the turn of the century (1895-1900). The oldest guitarist among those recordings was probably Ángel de Baeza. If his date of birth is right, it would make him 18 years older than Borrull padre, who was another very old one to appear on the earliest recordings. Others were Juan Gandulla "Habichuela" and Román García, although, for example, Javier Molina was older than either of them but didn't record until 1931. As you can imagine, there are other guitarists on those ancient cylinders and disks but we don't know their dates of birth or even their names in some cases. Before recordings were made, there were plenty of flamenco guitarists. One was Patiño, who accompanied Enrique El Mellizo and many others and was supposedly 30 years older than Paco de Lucena. All of the aforementioned guitarists were older than Ramón Montoya.
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Date Sep. 23 2010 13:35:56
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