Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Puro or Nuevo Flamenco?


Puro
  22% (8)
Nuevo
  8% (3)
More Puro
  20% (7)
More Nuevo
  11% (4)
Equally Both
  37% (13)


Total Votes : 35
(last vote on : Dec. 7 2010 17:07:40) 


Message


gounaro -> Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 1:08:09)

Hello, i just saw Tao Ruspoli's video about his personal Journey in flamenco's world and especially in Seville. (Check out in You Tube). I'm really excited from what i saw. I know that things have changed snce old times and i'm sure that flamenco isn't dead. I really want to find out which styles you prefer to play... [:)]




Chiste de Gales -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 12:06:22)

I guess Ill help out those who are interested:



Ten part series starting with this one




gounaro -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 12:25:34)

Excellent film with a lot of aire... [:)]




Doitsujin -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 14:43:11)

I clicked through it and didnt find any nuevo stuff. All looked like good gitano puro barrio flamenco shi-t. I call that GGPBFS! All good stuff![:)] (Except the rainbowcap of the guy there ...this is actually gay.. ...(Nothing against gays..but how boring would it be without using the term gay for jokes?.. [&:] )




gounaro -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 14:46:29)

In this film there is a "disagreement" if new age can talk about flamenco or not. Of course there is only puro flamenco but in a lot of scenes they talk about modern flamenco and if there is a chance for new age guitarists to reach the old ones.




Doitsujin -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 14:50:18)

Ah.. I didnt listen and translate..Just listened to the music, which is very nice in that movie. I love these gitano sessions!

quote:

In this film there is a "disagreement" if new age can talk about flamenco or not.


You know,.. singers and gitanos in general talk much nonsense.. (See graph below) The longer the day,..the more nonsense comes out of their mouth in comparison to normal people.. And interestingly, the singer even tops the not singing gitano! I wont take it too serious. Its like philosophize about soccer. Every amateur knows it better than the ref. [:-] (Im just joking.. ;.) Im waiting for barbecue and don´t know what to do.. If I would fill in my stats it would probaply be a continuous line at 100% throughout the day.. )



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Arash -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 15:00:08)

oh no, another puro/nuevo thread ...[&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: gounaro

In this film there is a "disagreement" if new age can talk about flamenco or not. Of course there is only puro flamenco but in a lot of scenes they talk about modern flamenco and if there is a chance for new age guitarists to reach the old ones.


some of these old guys just have too much time and their only hobby seams to be bitching about everything which happened during the last 50 years.




gshaviv -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 15:06:47)

Watched the movie, It's all puro, very puro. Great movie, makes me want to drop everything I'm doing and go to Spain, again.




XXX -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 16:05:08)

Well all this sh*ttalk is related to the (old and IMO outdated) question, whether you have to suffer or not to do arts. There was one guy i dont know if this documentary or another one, who said that in past people would suffer from hunger and only then you could do flamenco. These kind of views. Art or culture should be for good. It is for expressing your feelings (positive or negative), and not let yourself torture by feelings. It is obvious, at least to me, that these kind of views, are ideologies about what art is, but not the truth. They are "interested views" of people living either in poverty (kind of belittling their situation) or have something against new age.

Another point is, i think there is some basic respect towards the old, and an unproportional higher demand from the young in the spanish culture. Like no matter what the old guy does he always gets bonus points and olés for simply being old, but the young guy has to play at least like PdL or he gets no attention.

Having said all that, man i have nothing against traditional things! Its all good stuff. But i would never impose my tastes on somebody else, or call it unflamenco when it BOTH is an EQUALLY valid part of flamenco.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 22 2010 17:15:16)

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Florian -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 17:22:42)

quote:

As for puro/nuevo. Each generation's nuevo is the next generation's puro.


wow that hits the nail right on the head and expresses it all so perfect in one single line..brilliant....i could write half a page and it wouldn't explain it or express it as good as that

bravo amigo [;)]




Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Sep. 22 2010 17:42:36)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 22:04:36




Florian -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 17:46:41)

quote:

Can you imagine Ramon Montoya was nuevo flamenco once?


[:D][:D] kind off...


makes for an interesting point tho...do we know the name of the first guitarist on record known as a flamenco guitarist ?? how far back are the guitarists names documented ? and who and in what year was the first one we know of ?


is the guitarist from the Casa Patas logo a fictional or nameless guitarist of those days or is he someone real whose name is on record ? i have seen that same one guy in a few drawings...

i think this is a job for Norman




Ron.M -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 18:04:19)

quote:

Like no matter what the old guy does he always gets bonus points and olés for simply being old, but the young guy has to play at least like PdL or he gets no attention.


Could that be because that the older stuff somehow stirs a deep emotion within for everyone and the newer stuff is more cerebral and technical and attracts the young blades to challenge each other with for the alpha-player position?

cheers,

Ron




Florian -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 18:06:09)

quote:

Could that be because that the older stuff somehow stirs a deep emotion within and the newer stuff is more cerebral and technical and attracts the young blades to challenge each other with for the alpha-player position?


i prefer newer stuff but i agree with you....because if its simplicity ...it was more personal and eazyer to relate to, understand and feel involved...this days u might need a doctorate in contemporary music and a map into his taste and influences just to know when to applaud with some things




Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Sep. 22 2010 18:21:36)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 22:04:22




Ron.M -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 18:36:39)

I don't think it's the old player who actually gets the respect, but the music itself.

I bet Jimi had and loved the old Delta Blues players amongst his record collection.

New stuff does not negate old stuff IMO.

Maybe at first, but eventually when all the excitement and the dust clears, folk still know what's what and the "noo exciting players" either join their heros in the history books or are completely forgotten.

Just as a point of interest, when I visited Andalucia in the late 60's (before PdL/Camaron had really hit), the young folk used to say to me, "Bravo...but that's actually just Grandpa music....today it's folk like Clapton and Rock Music we listen to".

Folk are fickle. Music needs the test of time...and the old stuff has stood it IMO.

cheers,

Ron




gounaro -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 19:12:47)

I think that the same thing happens as time goes by... Maybe the olders think that new guys don't feel flamenco, but the same will be also happen to us when we reach our seventh decade of our age. Maybe we will tell the same things to newbies too. Who knows... [;)]




jg7238 -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 19:35:38)

I remember watching an interview with PDL a few years ago and he said that the old school way of playing is not "Puro"; it is just simply playing in the old traditional style. He said "Puro" is what you do with good taste and it comes from the soul. So maybe the term "Puro" doesn't really apply. It should be "Old school Flamenco" or "traditional".




XXX -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 21:09:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
New stuff does not negate old stuff IMO.


100% agree. I never get when people say modern is evolving away from flamenco. No. Modern stuff includes old stuff. Every modern player can play old stuff, its the natural way to learn. What they do with their own music, where they get their inspirations from (maybe other genres, other chords etc ) is another thing. Meaning "how far" they are departureing from the basics, is their own decision. Listen to the Solea on LuZia by PDL for example... very modern (more than some of the recent stuff), but still you can hear its a solea.

I also agree that traditional stuff, if its not super old, probably draws more attention than the new stuff, because it hits the average taste of flamencos and aficionados more. But i would be careful whether i would choose my tastes after what others feel would be good toque or guitar music. Many people dont even know much modern recordings (or dont care about guitar), because they think its jazz or too complicated or something^^. So there are all kinds of reasons why people in average prefer the "normal" stuff (not too old, not too modern).

You can like old and modern for different things, its no wonder to me because they ARE different styles. So these discussions about flamenco not being flamenco anymore surprise me a bit. Why not respect both, and let them co-exist for just a second? [8D]




Munin -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 22 2010 23:22:12)

I watched that documentary and I have to say I completely understand some of the sentiments expressed by those gitanos. I am the last person to hate "nuevo" stuff, in fact that's what I listen to most of the time (and some of it would probably make some people cringe here...) but somehow, I don't know, I think I understood what they meant - that something about flamenco is getting lost, because it's more and more just about technique, and complicated compositions and so on. I like what one of the guys said in the car, referring to players like Canizares and Vicente, he said "I like listening to them, but I wouldn't like to learn from them" - that's of course taking it too far. But somehow, I can understand and respect that attitude.

These days it's very often just about one-upping each other, more technique, adding orchestras, doing all kinds of fusion things, and while I listen to that stuff myself and like it, I think I can still understand what they mean. One of them said these days flamenco comes out of chemical laboratories, and yeah it certainly seems that way to me often as well.




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Florian -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 23 2010 0:10:49)

quote:

As for the Casa Pata logo, its El Planeta. He gets credited with singing the earliest seguiriya. However, it was unaccompanied so the question becomes who was the first guitarist. Paco de Lucena is one of the first.


excellent amigo..thank you

thats weird about El Paneta...about the fact that he was a singer and sang unacompanied...i am just going by memory this morning...too lazy to look for the logo but i remember him holding a guitar




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Florian -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 23 2010 5:19:46)

oh ok !! that makes sense...he accompanied himself

quote:

Angel Alvarez Caballero, Eusebio Rioja, and Jose Blas Vega are the best scholars to check out this stuff if you like reading.


lets not get crazy [:D] thats all i wanted to know, i just ask about things as i need to know them...i like to read once in the blue moon and i lose interest quick if there's no pictures [;)]


besides..the more you read, the more you know..the more things you have to argue about ...ignorance is a bliss [:)]




odinz -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 23 2010 5:26:31)

[:-]




Arash -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 23 2010 11:30:01)

"Flamenco is not a thing for Archaeologists. It lives!"
(Juan Jose Tellez)




NormanKliman -> RE: Puro or Nuevo Flamenco? (Sep. 23 2010 13:35:56)

quote:

Art or culture should be for good.


I agree with that, but I suppose that anyone who plays the guitar to feed their children will have a "hard" attitude about suffering and discipline.

quote:

i think there is some basic respect towards the old...


It's a big part of their culture.


quote:

Each generation's nuevo is the next generation's puro.
quote:

Music needs the test of time...and the old stuff has stood it IMO.


Well, it sounds nice to try to say it in just a few words, but both statements fall short of being accuarate, IMO. As you both know, what really happens is that only some things get passed on and become tradition. Who plays like the ricardistas nowadays? Depending on the case, it could be good or bad that some things aren't played today. I wish guitarists accompanied like Melchor, but I'm glad they aren't outplaying the singer like Montoya. I wish they played a little stronger like Marote, but I'm glad they aren't as brutish as some of the old-school players.

quote:

Every modern player can play old stuff


They used to hit the strings harder in general, and sometimes (like in Morao's bulerías) that requires a different kind of strength and endurance. Most of today's guitarists would probably have a hard time playing like Marote.

quote:

Angel Alvarez Caballero, Eusebio Rioja, and Jose Blas Vega...


Norberto Torres is a flamenco guitarist and much more of an authority than the others, although you never know what people will find in a library or archive.

http://www.tristeyazul.com/suena_guitarra/confgf.htm

quote:

>is the guitarist from the Casa Patas logo...


It's taken from the cover of the Magna anthology. I don't know how old that drawing is, but I don't think it's supposed to be El Planeta. I've seen two drawings that are supposed to represent El Planeta. One is here

http://www.horizonteflamenco.com/pagina.php?n=fillo

and the other is in Mundo y Formas.

quote:

do we know the name of the first guitarist on record known as a flamenco guitarist ?? how far back are the guitarists names documented ? and who and in what year was the first one we know of?


The oldest recordings are cylinders that were made just around the turn of the century (1895-1900). The oldest guitarist among those recordings was probably Ángel de Baeza. If his date of birth is right, it would make him 18 years older than Borrull padre, who was another very old one to appear on the earliest recordings. Others were Juan Gandulla "Habichuela" and Román García, although, for example, Javier Molina was older than either of them but didn't record until 1931. As you can imagine, there are other guitarists on those ancient cylinders and disks but we don't know their dates of birth or even their names in some cases. Before recordings were made, there were plenty of flamenco guitarists. One was Patiño, who accompanied Enrique El Mellizo and many others and was supposedly 30 years older than Paco de Lucena. All of the aforementioned guitarists were older than Ramón Montoya.




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