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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just had the pleasure to critique one of Poncho Navarro's new flamenco blanca guitars a few days ago.
This particular model had a spruce top and mediteranian cypress sides and back, with the new flamenco style tuning pegs that Brian Burns sells. Poncho's french polish was excellent and the color match for top, sides and back was perfect.
The guitar was made from the Manuel Reyes style flamenco plan that I drew up and donated to the Guild of American Luthiers.
I have to say that this new guitar was so good that I would have to work hard to do better. This may sound suspicious but it's true. Poncho has arrived at being a luthier who knows how a guitar works; truly propio cello.
I believe that Manuel Reyes is the best flamenco builder in the world and I will always admit that he has the edge, but Poncho has nailed this design perfectly and should rise to the top as a builder that has more work than he can handle.
Everything was in place with perfect articulation and a voice that compels you to play it. I was humbled.
This guitar model, along with his Miguel Rodriguez classical model, is a must for any serious student or professional player. The cost is what I find hard to compete with and I imagine that Poncho will be very busy building these two instruments.
He is now building these models personally while his family handles the student line of guitars.
Also, I saw a guitar case that looked very interesting, that his brother or cousin builds.
I'm sure that his low prices will go up, as time permits, and he will have a good life from his work with these models.
Richard Brune told me recently that Poncho's Miguel Rodriguez classical model is hard to beat at any price.
I believe this is a current phenomena coming out of the Navarro shop, so I can't speak for his earlier models.
But this is to notify all flamenco players that Poncho has got it down real close, if not better than the Maestro, surely in that league of builders.
Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Mr. Blackshear:
What a compliment you have paid Mr. Navarro with your review. You do not only build great guitars, you seem also to be the outmost profesional when it comes to reviewing other "Constructores" work.
Very nice of you to review another luthiers work Tom and heap such praise on it.
But to make it easier for those reading could you specify exactly which model it is as Francisco has a Concert Flamenco, a Grand Concert Flamenco and a Special Grand Concert Flamenco.
I assume its the latter but it'd be nice if you clarified as it'd be a shame if someone put in an order for one of the wrong ones.
I critiqued the top of his line, which is the Reyes style flamenco model. Sorry but I can't speak for the other less expensive lines, as I have not seen them.
Someone contacted Ron Hudson who is the US distributor for these guitars, and asked about a student model for $800.00 US.
I'm sure they are good guitars for the money but I was not commenting about that price line; only the Manuel Reyes and Miguel Rodriguez styles which are the top of his price lines. These two guitar models are definitely my cup of tea.
I would suggest that anyone who is interested in the complete line, e-mail Ron Hudson at Memorial Music in Houston Texas to find out the pricing of the different models.
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I've really been enjoying this Navarro Reyes model. Basically like the guitar described earlier except machine tuners. Oh and I am enjoying Foro Flamenco. A great resource for information.
hunter
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RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
ORIGINAL: minordjango
quote:
Navarro Reyes mode
whats the cost for one amigo , i think many of us like to know , and does he use the cocobolo wood ?
You can call Ron Hudson at Memorial Music in Houston Texas at (713) 461-1060 I can't find an e-mail address but the phone number is good for his new address. He just moved to a larger store front.
He is normally there by 1:00 PM every day except Sunday, I think.
However, I believe the guitar sells for around $4,000 at the present time; perhaps less, if you get it directly from Ron.
Out of curiosity, how does one distinguish a "Reyes" model from the rest of Navarros flamenco models?
There is nothing on the label to indicate that it is a Reyes model, all of the top of the line models are signed, nor is the headstock design any different from his Concert and Grand Concert models.
Rather strange because luthiers usually ensure that the models are either marked as such or have some identifying feature.
So what stops some unscrupulous person from selling or marketing one of Navarro's other flamenco models as a Reyes model???
That's a good question and frankly I think it deserves a good answer, but I don't have one right now. Francisco builds as he sees fit rather than copy an exact motif of the Reyes guitars. I've talked with Ron Hudson about this and I get the feeling that Poncho wants to build his own style rather than copy other styles to their exact measurements.
I can understand Navarro's artistic temperament and he has the right to build as he wishes, as his own designs have made his reputation, but if he wants to capture some different positions with his talent, I feel he should be more exact with his copies. I don't see this as an infringement on Reyes but as an honor to his name in the many years he has supplied excellent guitars to the world's flamenco players.
I just talked with Ron Hudson and he said that Navarro is currently making his guitars with the Reyes style head design and perhaps later on with the rosette. I mentioned that I would like to see a more Spanish style heel and more wood mass on the bridge tie block area. I think Navarro will be adding this to his building routine.
Poncho is capable of building about 2 guitars per month of this model, so potential buyers might want to consider that he will ultimately gain a waiting list for this particular model.
Are there other good guitars out there for the same prices? I'm sure there are but I wonder how many factories are building with the same design, for the same cost. In any case I find that variety is always good for the soul. And I would not like to see Poncho have a heart attack with too many orders :-)
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
i'd like to find out what other differences there are between the models. does he really use different designs? i think it might be quality of materials.
As an aside, I have serious doubts that Navarro is making the Concert, Grand-Concert and Super-Grand-Concert guitars alone as is being claimed.
or he's just a very hard worker and doesn't sleep at all similar to the Conde brothers
His son's or co-workers are doin the student models, but I am not sure anymore, since the huge request for his guitars that they, if they are also not buildiing some of the other models... No doubt that they are hard workers, we are the lazy people, only working 8 hours a day. As the Chinese people are hard workers too!
Here's a pic of the rosette, there are some similarities with an original Reyes on the right.
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RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
i'd like to find out what other differences there are between the models. does he really use different designs? i think it might be quality of materials.
Poncho built similar to a Santos pattern and now his family builds this pattern for sale. The Reyes style is the one he builds now.
For the past year or so, Poncho has been perfecting his Reyes style and I think this last guitar I viewed is one of the best Reyes styles I've seen come out of his shop. I think he will be perfecting this style for the fore-seeable future.
Although the Santos style is good, I think the Reyes style provides more modern articulation for the playing of today. And there is a definite difference in the voice.
And like I said, I haven't been able to critique his other guitars, recently, so I have no idea what quality they are. But it seems reasonable to believe that he critiques his own guitars before they leave his shop.
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
The Navarro Reyes I posted has no obvious (to me) distinguishing features. It is a mid 2010 model. June or July based on information provided and date of purchase).
The rosette is as pictured in Kozz's post. On the FN website, there is a different rosette shown for the Reyes model. Maybe the rosette was standardized later in production but it is hard to set this as a defining feature with the information I have available. The tuner buttons and posts are black which is consistent with available Reyes model pictures but tuners are easily changed. The guitar is french polished which appears to be a Reyes model characteristic but may also be available on other models. The headstock is FN standard.
Mine is a 655mm scale. This is a feature documented on the FN (Ron Hudson's) website as unique to the Reyes model. However other websites offering FN Reyes models do not appear to note this distinction. I suspect that at least recent Reyes models are 655 scale which would be a relatively easy to verify feature if it is standard to the model.
Aside from interior construction details of which I am not knowledgable, I am not aware of any other obvious markers. I seems that someone who understands builder practices could do an interior inspection and tell if a guitar was built on a Navarro Santos pattern or a Navarro Reyes pattern but I could not.
I did receive paperwork from Ron documenting the guitar was a "Special Grand Concert Flamenco Reyes" model. That and the sound the guitar is capable of producing is adequate for me. Knowing, with some certainty, more about defining physical characteristics would be good too.
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to hunter)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hunter
The Navarro Reyes I posted has no obvious (to me) distinguishing features. It is a mid 2010 model. June or July based on information provided and date of purchase).
hunter
I think that Sr. Navarro is in a transition period with this style and will be more exact with his work, in time. This is an ongoing correction of little details as he goes.
Also, we should remember that any fan brace pattern that is just a little off, would cease to be an exact copy. This is the reason I prefer to decribe this more as a style rather than an exact copy.
The feed back I gave to Ron Hudson will show us if Navarro is receptive to the suggestions. I estimate that he will change a few more things toward a more exact style, as he goes.
But any way we look at it, Navarro is his own man when it comes to building guitars. Most every experienced builder has this innate understanding of his own work.
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I see that FN is in transition and I find this is not unusual or troubling as it seems guitar building at the individual level has in it's nature a transitional element. "In the style of Reyes" is a perfectly acceptable place for me and I think most would be comfortable with someone's personal stamp appearing in a design when the sonic results are good.
Based on your knowledge, is the 655 scale length now featured a step along the way for the Reyes model or a destination? Could this be a distinguishing physical characteristic of the style now and going forward?
hunter
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RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to hunter)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hunter
Based on your knowledge, is the 655 scale length now featured a step along the way for the Reyes model or a destination? Could this be a distinguishing physical characteristic of the style now and going forward?
hunter
For some strange reason the 655 mm scale fits perfectly. Hang the mathmatics and see that this particular scale needs no extra harmonic adjustment, it is perfectly separated in length on both sides of the 12th fret; or it should be.
When everything is perfectly in place, the first string at the 19th fret sings. I'm not saying I hit it every time but as a rule, I do :-)
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to hunter)
quote:
The Navarro Reyes I posted has no obvious (to me) distinguishing features. It is a mid 2010 model. June or July based on information provided and date of purchase).
Hunter, it might be signed that date....is it handwritten? It doesn't mean it has been finished in June 2010.
I can understand your "sadness" that is has the looks and feel of all the other models and not a special one, but in the end its the sound that counts. The head looks good to me, some nice tuners I suppose, way better than on the Grand Concert model.
It is only dated ANO 2010. The 2010 is handwritten. I base the month on information Ron gave me that the guitar was recently completed when I bought it in August.
No sadness, some curiosity. I don't know that the tuners are more special than those on the Grand Concert models. Maybe just a different color?
In truth, I prefer the guitar have the FN headstock since it is after all a Navarro. Having additional information about the model written on the label wouldn't change the guitar. Sounds good and as you said, that is what counts.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
what IS the difference between a santos style guitar, a reyes style guitar and a conde style guiter? i mean the real differences, not just the pretty rosette or purfling..
RE: Francisco Navarro Guitars (in reply to HolyEvil)
quote:
ORIGINAL: HolyEvil
what IS the difference between a santos style guitar, a reyes style guitar and a conde style guiter? i mean the real differences, not just the pretty rosette or purfling..
cheers
The Conde fan brace design is different from the other two which are close to each other in the fan brace patterns. But what separates all the guitars will be the motif and sound with certain articulation.
This sets them apart. All of these three designs are fan brace patterns, with or without bottom stiffeners, so this is not unique. What is unique is the builders and their handy work.
And where fan brace designs are different is in the placement, since not all designs are placed the same. Each design will contribute to the way the guitar plays and sounds.
Then we have the final touch which is each builder's personal stamp, propio sello, and this will come out differently with each individual builder, even if they build the same design.
I will close in saying that the older Santos patterns do not have the same articulation as the more modern Reyes design that I drew for the GAL. And that the earlier Condes don't have the same articulation that the modern Condes have. I personally like the older Condes better, as they can be fine tuned to have better articulation and power, and their character is more flamenco to me.
This is describing the Faustino Conde style, not their apprentice models.
Also, I should add that I've never heard an excellent Santos copy made with Santos's incredible character. I have come close but no cigar.
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