Picado with I and M

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Picado with I and M

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Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

Picado with I and M

I have a suggestion for anyone who might be interested in experimenting with it, with respect to alternating when playing picado. I developed a method for myself when learning guitar, and now use it with my students with great success. I came to the conclusion that when playing picado with I and M, it is more fluent and secure if you always use M when ascending to a higher string, and always use I when descending to a lower string. Think about it – you wouldn't dream of playing an ascending arpeggio on 3-2-1 by ascending with A-M-I – it would be incredibly cumbersome and unnatural, because I-M-A very naturally fall on 3-2-1. It's really the identical thing. M naturally falls to the next higher string from I. That's because M is longer than I, which makes it awkward to ascend with I instead of M. Play apoyando very slowly and take a look at your right hand fingers as you ascend. If you play the third string apoyando with M, it comes to rest, however momentarily, on the fourth string. So now M is on the fourth string and you have to reach up with the shorter finger I across the third string to the second string. It's cumbersome. Now reverse it. Play the third string apoyando with I. Now with I resting on the fourth string see how easy and natural it is to play the second string with M. M goes right to it. You don't even get a sense of reaching or stretching. And the same thing happens descending.

Try it slowly, and you will see immediately that when you ascend to the next string with I, there is a sense of "reaching" upward unnaturally. Then ascend with M, and you will see how easily and naturally the movement flows. Then do the same thing descending. Descending to the next string with I is more fluent than with M. So I always ascend with M and always descend with I. However, this imposes certain fingering revisions and requirements, that fortunately are easily met. Sometimes the next note falling on the next string down or up might not fit into that scheme. This is solved by simply taking the note on a different string. To take the most elementary example, play a one octave descending C scale in the first position. If you play the C on the second string with I, you can descend perfectly according to this method, until you come to C on the fifth string. At that point you would have to descend with M, and that breaks the pattern. Instead, if you take the D on the fifth string instead of the open fourth, you can maintain a perfect alternation, and descend to the fifth string with I playing D after M has played the E on the fourth string. The left hand fingering would have to change as well – you would play F with 2 and E with 1, and of course D with 4 and C with 2. This is just a simple example for purposes of illustration, but you can extrapolate from that to any and every run, and utilize the same principle. This might not be for everyone, but it might help some to play picado faster and more fluently.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2010 20:03:47

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Hi,

You might be on to something I'm not sure because there will be situations when it is difficult. These right hand techniques (in the picture) practice string crossing when doing IM or MA picados where moving the hand across the strings makes up for the difficult finger stretches. They require both fingers to be used. Maybe that would be something you would teach later?

cheers,
Richard

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2010 2:00:19

orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

This finger length difference issue is one that can be overcome with exercises so that it is then possible to ascend or descend with either finger. It is a fairly standard piece of modern technique to be able to do so.
Flamenco technique is not easy but technical exercises work; what was once difficult becomes easier. My experience is that my picado significantly improved once I addressed this string crossing problem. Flamenco is a problem solving exercise, identifying technically, exactly what is hindering musical expression and then solving the problem- there are many personal solutions.

Grisha, Jason Maguire and JG all advocate learning to cross strings either way with either finger and the proof is in the world class picado they each possess. Here's JG's exercise:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=134315&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=picado%2Cexercises%2Cstring%2Ccrossing&tmode=&smode=&s=#134315

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2010 7:36:33

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Right Richard, though these patterns might not be the best to illustrate what I'm suggesting as something to possibly at least take a look at and try. These patterns are closer to arpeggio patterns, and have intervening notes left out. A typical flamenco picado run will go scale-wise, and that's where you almost always will have to ascend with I and descend with M at several points. Certainly, as Orsonw points out, you can train your fingers to cross using either finger, which generally entails having a little bit more bend in M to compensate for the length, so it's a matter of choice. I just happened to have started doing my pattern very early in my training, and it worked well, so I teach it to my beginning students. But as with just about all aspects of technique, you can do many things in different ways, and if you practice any given way diligently enough, you will become proficient. But I have had intermediate and some advanced students who were not entirely satisfied with their picado, and many of them improved after adopting this pattern. As I said originally, it might not be for everyone, but for anyone who is dissatisfied with his picado, it's worth at least trying.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2010 9:21:55

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

These patterns are closer to arpeggio patterns, and have intervening notes left out.

no they don't, they are string crossing exercises, the idea is to play them with i m picado rest stroke.

each note is on a different string, which means you have to string cross constantly, yes, even the "difficult" way m i ascending and i m descending

instead of avoiding "awkward" string crossing, practise it until it is as easy as the "easy" string crossing....

quote:

it is more fluent and secure if you always use M when ascending to a higher string, and always use I when descending to a lower string ...... However, this imposes certain fingering revisions and requirements,

what happens when you improvise?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2010 1:29:06

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

As I said from the start, I suggested this simply as AN alternative way of playing picado, that anyone who is not satisfied with his picado might try, and see if it might possibly help. I never said it was the only way or even the best way, just something to experiment with for anyone who might want to try something different. And many of my students have improved their picado this way.

Some afterthoughts on various other alternative aspects of picado. Some players advocate repeating a finger when it comes to rest on the next string down. I personally think you should always alternate, but I have seen players repeat a finger at a fast tempo pretty fluently. Here is a clip of a classical guitarist playing a highly original rendition of "La Cumparsita." Watch the long picado run at the end and you will see him repeat a finger at a fast tempo.

Manitas de Plata also used the repeat finger technique at a rapid tempo. Obviously this can only be used descending. Manitas de Plata also used an alternative picado - he played picado with I and A.

Another way of compensating for the longer M was used by Segovia. He angled I and M toward the bridge which brings both fingers to the strings on the same plane.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2010 5:54:35

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

You lost me at ALWAYS.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2010 8:42:15

orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

always alternate

To begin with it's best to learn to alternate, then to incorporate the exceptions e.g. if there is a strike followed by ligado, then the same finger could strike again especially if that second strike is on the next lower string.

For those wishing to play flamenco picado, best to learn to alternate and also to cross strings. Doing what feels most natural initially can cause problems later on and then it's much harder to change technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2010 11:49:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado with I and M (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I advocated the exact same idea on the forum for years now. It came naturally to me from working on Paul Gilbert's alternate picking patterns. I see the down stroke as I and the up stroke as M, and anyone who knows what I mean about the left hand has to work harder to make the right hand smoother will understand how to apply those concepts. Mostly sequences that use odd or even note groups depending on how you will end up crossing strings. The point is to achieve speed and fluidity, so this mainly applies to only fast runs.

But it should be looked at as a general guide. There will be the problem spots where you alternate and have no choice but to do the awkward move. So I try to think of the concept to be efficient and helpful so long as the MAJORITY of string crossings are comfy.

But the problem with changing the left hand fingering in flamenco is the tone. This does not have so much importance with electric guitar, where I first applied these ideas and they made tons of sense. Putting the D note on the 5th fret vs the open string really has a different sound when it comes to flamenco. So I would have to say that practicing the awkward combos has some benefit to it for this reason.

I personally lie between the two concepts, trying to make my right hand moves smooth as possible while maintaing the tone I need. Often times a sacrifice has to be made unfortunately.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2010 19:51:48