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Does size really matter?   You are logged in as Guest
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yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

Does size really matter? 
Not cejillas you sickos!! I'm mean for guitars. Does the variation in size and shape of a guitar body really make that much of a difference. Many guitar plans I've seen vary slightly, but most are almost identical. For example, when comparing two guitars, one may have an upper bout that is 1/8in bigger and a lower bout that is 1/8in smaller. The depth may vary slightly, too.

Assuming internal volume of the guitar is about the same, do small variances really matter, or are other factors (ie wood, soundboard, bracing, etc...) far more important than a couple millimeters here and there (especially when considering that a guitar is made by hand, not machine).

If you think the slight variances really are significant, what effect does changing the upper bout, lower bout, depth, etc...have on the sound of the guitar?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2010 13:10:05
 
Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
Hy yourwhathurts69

The question you are asking is a very valid question. I can answer your question only by theory not by own experience as i have never built guitars out of the standard size.

The theory says that there are certain measurements that have proven in the past to provide the best results in regards to sonority and tonal quality. We can be sure that generations of luthiers before us have dealed with this question.

The ideal measurements are related to the scale length and they are traditionally extracted from the "golden ratio". R.E. Bruné wrote an article about this issue in one of the GAL magazines. He mentioned the ideal ratio should be always respected by -/+ 5%. Any divergance mayor than that will decrease the tonal quality of the instrument regardless whether the outline were enlarged or diminished.

It is known that this particular question of the ideal soundbox size was a main concern of Antonio de Torres. We know that all other luthiers of his time have built guitars with significantly smaller bodies and usually flat soundboards. (For example the guitarmaker Manuel Gutierrez who was a neighbour of Torres in Sevilla). The problem of these guitars was the laking volume and projection needed in order to be heard in a concert hall. It is commonly recognized that Torres enlarged the plantilla in order to increase the volume. The problem was the soundboard whose surface were enlarged to almost double size at the same time. Torres solved that problem by inventing the doming in combinaton with a 7 fan bracing. This system allowed him to build larger guitars with a significantly louder tone without loss of tonal quality. Nevertheless, experiments with larger guitar bodys have shown that the tonal quality will decrease as soon as a certain size is surpassed.

I for one build my guitars within the rules as given by Torres. The question i'm concerned is not how to make my guitars louder but rather how to make them sounding better.

regards

Armando

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2010 11:27:54
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
Honestly, I don't think you should give two sh*ts what Bruné says. He is a great guy and incredibly knowledgeable but suffers from confirmation bias. Vis a vis, his scientific findings only support his hypotheses. ergo, not real science. try whatever you feel like. take the balalaika for instance, a triangular instrument. sounds fine, isn't guitar shaped could be made to sound like one though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 9:33:45
 
Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
quote:

Honestly, I don't think you should give two sh*ts what Bruné says. He is a great guy and incredibly knowledgeable but suffers from confirmation bias.


HemeloaMan

What you wrote is not correct and even less decent, but i have to respect your opinion. However i don't think that such comments are a valuable contribution to this forum.

You might have your opinion about R.E. Bruné and you might be right in a certain way, but in regards to the topic that we are talking about here, he has a lot to say and what he talks about is no bulls**t.

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever built a guitar by yourself? Just a question....

And yes, everybody is free do what he want's. We don't need to pay attention to such stupid guys. The question is to what level we will arrive if we constantly ignore the knowledge and experience of other people.

regards

Armando

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 12:58:42
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to Armando) 
brune and i get along quite nicely. i respect him and everything he does. he is a great guy and certainly an expert in his field.

My point isnt that what he says is wrong. He is right, if thats your idea of a guitar then yes there is a particular set of proportions that each maker follows within that +/- percent range.

you've misread me.

but overall, there is not any particular max size or minimum size that he has specified.

if you want to get right down to it, making the guitar to actually reproduce all of the fundamental at 85hz (low e neighborhood) you'd need it to be in the neighborhood of 7 cu ft. it would still function as a guitar and would still sound just great. it'd be a huge pain to play tho!

and he does have confirmation bias. that's not a mark against his character its just what it is. anyone who spends that much time studying guitars and being so passionate about them would have it. same with any science.

Imagine your entire life's work, you wouldn't want to dismiss it because of some contrary evidence you found on some occasion. So you start using data that you want to keep and ignorign other data. its not devious, its not bad its just what happens in research.

and perhaps you should read more carefully my posts. I am correct. I have talked with him for long periods of time in person. he has described to me these very same things. I've even seen real life examples in his shop. don't presume to correct me with absolutely no knowledge of where my information came from.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 13:29:11
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to HemeolaMan) 
I actually still owe him a cake too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 13:36:19
 
Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to HemeolaMan) 
quote:

Imagine your entire life's work, you wouldn't want to dismiss it because of some contrary evidence you found on some occasion. So you start using data that you want to keep and ignorign other data. its not devious, its not bad its just what happens in research.


Hy HemeloaMan

Sorry if i have misread or maybe misunderstand your post.

In regards to the text in quote, i think that as luthier we must be prepared to accept that we will never finish to learn and even not after decades. Once we think that we know it all, we will stop to progress.

Sometimes we make our logic conclusions out of what we have in our minds, but sometimes we get surprised that the truth isn't always logic.

If we would accept the guitar as made by Torres as the perfect guitar, there would be no room for improvement anymore, but there is.

regards

Armando

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 13:55:47
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to Armando) 
i agree with you, there is a proportion that makes guitars sound "good" or torres like. i'm guessing, and now an educated guess from your site, that you of the romanillos school of building.

but the thing of it is, i am simply stating that while it is true that if you make a guitar in those proportions it is more probable to sound like it "should "for lack of a better word, than a guitar that is a rectangle. this does not mean that a differently proportioned guitar of a different size altogether would not sound excellent as well. it just owuldnt sound like a torres lol

we agree, but i'm guessing that classic internet miscommunication has occurred.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 14:04:55
 
Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
quote:

but the thing of it is, i am simply stating that while it is true that if you make a guitar in those proportions it is more probable to sound like it "should "for lack of a better word, than a guitar that is a rectangle. this does not mean that a differently proportioned guitar of a different size altogether would not sound excellent as well. it just owuldnt sound like a torres lol


Yes, you are right, i am out of the Romanillos school. How did you found out? Is it because i'm taking Torres as a maker of reference?

I'm building mainly flamenco guitars and none of my guitars are Torres alike unless the proportions of the body. What i mean is that most contemporary makers use the Torres measurements +/- but their guitars don't sound alike and most of them not Torres alike. So the use of the Torres measurements by it's own doesn't define the sound of the guitar at all.

regards

Armando

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 14:17:30
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to Armando) 
because, just an approach thing. a few things you said and the way you said them triggered the association. domed tops etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 15:36:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
Hmm. The Golden Mean. Total ****.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2010 23:23:24
 
Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
quote:

Hmm. The Golden Mean. Total ****.


Why?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2010 0:22:58
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
I think that Size matters! I have two shapes for my guitars one normal size and one smaller bodied instrument. The difference I have noticed between the two are the depth of sound I can achieve from the instruments. Perhaps by building even lighter I could get more out of the smaller instrument. The bass responce is more noticable on the small instrument to having less depth. and the treble seem to have alot more power. Probably down to the overall air mass being pumped in and out of the body. I wouldnt say either one was particually louder than the other either. there are many loud instruments that are alot smaller than a guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2010 0:48:46
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Does size really matter? (in reply to yourwhathurts69) 
quote:

Imagine your entire life's work, you wouldn't want to dismiss it because of some contrary evidence you found on some occasion. So you start using data that you want to keep and ignorign other data. its not devious, its not bad its just what happens in research.


as someone who spent time in grad school as well as my professional life involved in research i would take exception with the above statement.

ignoring data that conflicts with a hypothesis is, in fact, devious and bad (wrong). in university research settings one could easily lose tenure if not their position because the above constitues fraud. in other settings it could lead to a host of problems--2 examples come to mind that being the anti-vaccine and pharmacological research.

good science can deal with facts that somehow do not fit a given hypothesis. the hypothesis may in fact be a good one and somehow the data that does not fit does not mean either the hypothesis or data are bad, rather, it may mean there is something unique to the hypothesis and/or data that was heretofore unknown or unexplained and in the explanation the data could in fact fit the hypothesis. that is what good science is all about. true, a lot of researchers do "overlook or mislook" data but when they do they have journeyed down a road that is, in fact, bad.

as to the statement that implies brune "fudges" his data, that i cannot address as i am not familiar with all of his work and do not have the expertise to adequately evaluate his methods and findings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2010 7:55:22
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