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Is a flamenco guitar supposed to buzz?   You are logged in as Guest
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GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

Is a flamenco guitar supposed to buzz? 
So here's another one of my questions as I try to cut through what might be another marketing misconception.

Two often-heard statements that I hear about a flamenco guitar is:
1. The action is supposed to be low. (Okay, fine. I like improved playability anyway.)
2. A little (or a lot) of buzz is acceptable and is part of the guitar's "growl". (Really?)

I'm not sure I agree with "2". Yes, a guitar with lower action will have a greater propensity to buzz. But have have played nicely-made flamenco guitars with low action that do not buzz. I have also played classical guitars with equally low action that do not buzz. (Yes. I keep a string-height gauge in my pocket when I visit shops.)

Keep in mind that I'm just talking about the action as measured from the 12th fret. We can discuss the string height from the tapa in another topic.

Maybe my ears aren't that sharp, but I don't hear much buzzing either in many of the old recordings. I don't hear it from any of the modern recordings but a good sound engineer might be able to diminish the buzz with a noise signature filter.

So, is a flamenco guitar really supposed to buzz with normal play? Is it just another marketing ploy to excuse poorly-made guitars with low action that do buzz? Do your best flamencas buzz?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2010 12:06:52
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
I think a good guitar ( well made ) with a good strings is not supposed to buzz at all.
quote:

Do your best flamencas buzz?

no I don't think so.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2010 12:16:26
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
GuitarVlog,

IMO the "buzzing" is only very slight, but enough to give exactly the same effect as an electric guitar with overdrive (which is "clipping"), when played hard.
You don't hear it noticibly.

Gives the guitar a more "solid" edge when played firmly.

Shouldn't buzz like a faulty guitar with a warped neck or bad fret, but a controlled buzz.

Which is very difficult to achieve for the Luthier IMO...as well as the short sustain.

Much more effort to set up than a Classical with a "clean" sound IMO..

cheers,

Ron

PS: Can you imagine a "clean" Sitar?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2010 12:17:41
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

IMO the "buzzing" is only very slight, but enough to give exactly the same effect as an electric guitar with overdrive (which is "clipping"), when played hard.
You don't hear it noticibly.

I think I know what you mean Ron. It's a bit hard for me to get a clean point of reference since my experience with electric guitars and distortions is very limited.

Maybe someone will have the time and recording tools to provide an illustrative sound-clip.

Sitar? Iranian or Indian?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2010 17:30:46
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
Buzzing, especially annoying buzzing has more to do with the player than the guitar. (We are talking about flamenco guitars with a correct setup)
A fully develloped flamenco tecnique takes many years to achieve and players with a high level of flamenco tecnique are capable of playing guitars with lower setups than beginners and make less annoying noise or buzz.

In my ears, if played correctly, a bit of buzzing is nice, if played uncorrectly, buzzing is very annoying.

There are players (bad ones) capable of making whatever guitar buzz

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2010 23:38:50
 
estebanana

Posts: 9370
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RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
A subtle right hand technique is the best defense of bad tone. Many players play too hard with the right hand.
IMHO ( should such a thing exist)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 0:00:48
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
You can play very hard with the right hand and not buzz if you have a highly develloped and controled right hand technique.

Example, If you dont strech out your fingers when doing rasguados, you´ll get buzzing and a muddy sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 3:29:29
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
A guitar with no buzz at all, will not sound so nice for rhythmic strumming. It will sound dull when doing rasueados, but may sound really nice when playing melodic things.

Conversely a guitar that has tons of buzz might be great for rhythm, but playing any solo things sounds like a banjo. So there is a delicate balance there for a flamenco guitar which has the job to do both lead and rhythm at once.

The art in making a guitar set up right is that you have a low bridge, yet the action is not TOO low over the soundboard so you can play strongly most melodic things and get a clean clear tone, yet some strong strumming gets the buzz going too.

As anders pointed out the degree of play in between extremes has to do with player technique. Some guys hitting harder will need a bit higher action over the fingerboard, where as guys with a softer touch my do fine with a very low action guitar. its millimeters we are talking.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 6:48:46
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 7:01:28
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

The few high end flamenco guitars i've played have more of a 'sizzle'...a rasp AFTER the string is played. a growl through the whole instrument..power and projection...
nothing to do with buzzing..


Yes it has, AlVal
That growl or rasp or sizzle is caused by the short sustain, dry sound and the strings slightly touching the frets when played hard..(what Classical folk call "buzz").

Good test....slide in a saddle that is about 2mm higher so the guitar is totally buzz free and see if you get the same sound.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 8:00:06
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
GuitarVlog--you did not mention what string height you consider low and what you consider high. additionally, string tension affects "buzzing" as well as technique, set-up, etc.

i have always had the philosophy that string buzz is like cerebral buzz--a little is good but if the buzz is always there then it is not good. likewise, a good buzz is always better than a bad buzz.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 14:41:15
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to keith) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: keith
GuitarVlog--you did not mention what string height you consider low and what you consider high. additionally, string tension affects "buzzing" as well as technique, set-up, etc.

For my inexpensive Yamaha flamenco, the lowest I can take it is 0.130" for 6th and 0.100" for the 1st with no buzz on a hard attack. I have another Yamaha classical that works at 0.120" and 0.009". My understanding is that both are at the "medium" range for a classical guitar. Basses are hard-tension but trebles are normal tension.

I would consider 0.110" at the 6th and 0.080" at the 1st (or lower) to be "low" action. The other flamencas that I have examined are usually at this range. Some buzz and some don't. All were (as I was told) strung with normal tension though I suspect that half of the retailers didn't know and were just trying to act knowledgeable.

I consider 0.140" at the 6th and 0.110" at the 1st to be "high" for a classical. I consider 0.120" at the 6th and 0.09" at the 1st to be "high" for a properly adjusted flamenca.

Are those roughly in line with others' expectations?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 15:18:04
 
Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
Well, an important thing in getting a good low setup is to work the frets with files. Its a very delicate work but its the only way to get a decent setup. And to have the right neck relief helps a lot as well

I consider 0,120 (3mm) at the bass and 0,100 (2,5mm) at treble to be a standard flamenco setup.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2010 23:35:34
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2010 2:23:57
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

That growl or rasp or sizzle is caused by the short sustain, dry sound and the strings slightly touching the frets when played hard..(what Classical folk call "buzz").

Good test....slide in a saddle that is about 2mm higher so the guitar is totally buzz free and see if you get the same sound.

cheers,

Ron


I was thinking about this last night when going to sleep.

I had some ambient music on and it happened to be B-tribe. They mix ambient trancy-techno-ish stuff with Spanish guitar.

Anyway, I was listening to the guitar and heard a bit of a buzz and even though it wasn't a flamenco bit, I knew it was a flamenco guitar because of a tiny growly buzz.


I'm sure a tiny bit of what some people might call buzz is what contributes to a flamenco's growl. Listen to Lencuona's Malaguena, Albeniz's Asturias or a bit of Rodrigo's Adagio on a flamenco compared to a classical... It's part of what defines a flamenco's sound.

Of course, drawing a line regarding 'too much of a good thing' is going to be subjective.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 3:58:40
 
M.S.A.

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 6:30:45
 
estebanana

Posts: 9370
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to GuitarVlog) 
quote:

I'm sure a tiny bit of what some people might call buzz is what contributes to a flamenco's growl. Listen to Lencuona's Malaguena, Albeniz's Asturias or a bit of Rodrigo's Adagio on a flamenco compared to a classical... It's part of what defines a flamenco's sound.


I think the Albeniz and the Lecuona were written for piano originally, but flamenco guitars make them come alive. They get played cleanly on classical guitars and that's cool, but it's more Muzac-y. All them did what the composer Pedrell was talking about, that is drawing from folk idioms and flamenco. All those pieces are sanitized, gussied up versions of folk music and were meant to be for clean sound delivery on classical instruments, but when the grit of a flamenco guitar is reintroduced they seem to sound better. It's as if the music is once or twice removed from where it came from and when it is repatriated to its source it makes more sense.

yes /no?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 17:25:17
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Is a flamenco guitar supposed to... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I'm sure a tiny bit of what some people might call buzz is what contributes to a flamenco's growl. Listen to Lencuona's Malaguena, Albeniz's Asturias or a bit of Rodrigo's Adagio on a flamenco compared to a classical... It's part of what defines a flamenco's sound.


I think the Albeniz and the Lecuona were written for piano originally, but flamenco guitars make them come alive. They get played cleanly on classical guitars and that's cool, but it's more Muzac-y. All them did what the composer Pedrell was talking about, that is drawing from folk idioms and flamenco. All those pieces are sanitized, gussied up versions of folk music and were meant to be for clean sound delivery on classical instruments, but when the grit of a flamenco guitar is reintroduced they seem to sound better. It's as if the music is once or twice removed from where it came from and when it is repatriated to its source it makes more sense.

yes /no?

Yes?

I think the Lencuona piece, even if it was written for piano, it was borrowed from/inspired by guitar, so it's even more of a repatriation.



I think part of the buzz is like Ron mentioned, when stings are played hard on a flamenco the briefly touch the frets. Even if it's almost nothing, it's still more than a classical. I've been listening a lot more closely since I started following this thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 19:35:02
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