Picado Technique questions

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steven0356

Posts: 12
Joined: May 16 2010

Picado Technique questions

Ok I am practicing scales using the Picado Technique.

When going from the high E to the B string, for example, Is it always necessary to keep the alternating finger practice going? Or since one of the fingers is already laying up against the B string would it not be faster just to pluck the B string with that finger?

Thanks for your help

steve

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 7:35:20

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

Hello Steven!

This is indeed a very controversial topic. You will find some people who make it a point to ALWAYS alternate, and others who say that certain situations allow for some finger dragging (or using the same finger to play more than one note in a row for picado).

It would probably be the most helpful for you to start out adhering to strict alternation, and reading the threads on the foro (use the search function to find these threads). As you get more experience, you will get to a point where you form a method that suits your playing the most - that will be achieved after having experimented with what you've read about, and only then will you be able to reach what you find to be the optimal method.

Ole!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 7:51:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steven0356

Ok I am practicing scales using the Picado Technique.

When going from the high E to the B string, for example, Is it always necessary to keep the alternating finger practice going? Or since one of the fingers is already laying up against the B string would it not be faster just to pluck the B string with that finger?

Thanks for your help

steve

Correct this is the ECONOMICAL thing to do, and in some cases the best way. But remember the sound will be a little different. After a while developing little tricks like this will get you speed, but not the same control. For example, you don't get to use the same trick on scales that go UP instead of down. So you don't want to end up limiting yourself to only fast descending runs. And later, more complex sequences of notes will be an uncomfortable obstacle. So at this early stage, work hard on developing comfort and control of strict alternations.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 7:53:09

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

I always alternate, and never ever use the same same finger twice.
I would suggest that you develop and master alternate i-m and m-i, especially if you are new to playing picado.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 7:58:37

yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

Indeed you should always alternate because when you do fast picados you sort of swing the fingers and hit the strings, you dont plant first and then play a rest stroke.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 8:43:41

steven0356

Posts: 12
Joined: May 16 2010

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

Thanks again those were all well reasoned and thought out explanations

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 10:47:53

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to steven0356)

And what about alternating three finger picado's? a m i , and, i m a?
Today, practicing those is helping me to boost expression and expanding motoric reflexes.
To my limited knowledge no one here on the foro ever mentions these two finger combinations (ami and ima) - including its larger scope in sequential variations, permutations and expansions such as: m i a, i a m, m a i , a i m , and so many more. I found them in various books on flamenco technique in the Oscar Herrero series of books in which they are subject to immense in-depth study.

For me, a different angle on picado technique.

Cheers!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 21:40:43

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to greeny)

Greeny: so, what does Oscar say about three-finger picado? Does he say that it must always be done in the order a-m-i, or does he say that anything goes as long as you don't use the same finger twice in a row?

I was practicing three-finger picado the other day for the first time, and I felt that I had a tendency to play a passage like this:

a-m-i-m-a-m-i-m-a-etc. rather than a-m-i-a-m-i-a-m-i-etc.

I guess a-m-i-a-m-i-a-m-i-etc. is faster if practiced correctly and long enough. I've seen people mix a-i-a-i-a-i with a-m-i-a-m-i with amazing results.

The ultimate question remains though: can one learn to IMPROVISE using three-finger picado? Or is it only limited to rehearsed complex/multi-string runs, or single-string impromptu runs?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 0:38:20

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
I've seen people mix a-i-a-i-a-i with a-m-i-a-m-i with amazing results.

Please post it.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 0:49:01

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

You will find some people who make it a point to ALWAYS alternate, and others who say that certain situations allow for some finger dragging (or using the same finger to play more than one note in a row for picado).

The only time i ever heard anyone seriously suggest using the same finger again in picado was when the two notes played by the same finger were separated by a note played ligado.

this is not instead of strict alternation, this is as well as/part of strict alternation, as the same finger does not play two consecutive notes, but two notes separated by another note played ligado

it's not my idea, but i did put this forward as a suggestion in a recent thread

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 3:50:51

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Please post it.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 15:38:08

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to rombsix)

Rombsix,

First off apologies for not replying anytime sooner but my internet connection was down a couple of days.

The information I got was retrieved not from Oscar H. himself but via two books published within the context of the Escuela Oscar Herrero and are written one by Jorge Cardoso and the other by Juan Lorenzo.

In a nutshell: These two teachers demonstrate techniques by which one (the student) can expand one's right hand picado-chops. Here follows a very condensed description of some of the things you can investigate.

1- Choose a right hand (3 note) fingering pattern, say : i m a

2- Design an open strings-combination which you are going to attack with i m a . Start off using two strings;
these could be (strings) 2 2 1 ( B B E ) or 2 1 2 or 1 2 2 ... 1 1 2 ...1 2 1, etc, etc, etc .... play these string combinations with i m a adhering to this right hand formula, do not alter it.

3- We started with i m a , now 'shift' (move over) the order to m a i ; the direction remains the same only the starting finger changes. Go over the various string combinations as above; "shift" again to obtain a i m . The direction of the fingering remains identical, only the accented first note moves over.

4- Expand on the string groupings doubling the length for instance: 2 2 1. 2 2 3. ( B B E B B G ).
Others may include: 2 1 2. 2 3 2 . Lengthened once more and one could get : 2 2 2. 2 2 1. 2 2 2. 2 2 3. or even 2 2 2. 1 2 2. 2 2 2. 3 2 2, .... whatever.

4 bis - Another "strings-groupings expansion" to round things off: 3 2 1 ( of course! ) G B E and... 2 1 3 and 1 3 2 and 1 2 3 ... enough!

5- Notice these are all ternary groupings ; so now regroup them via accentuation into a binary-form and obtain: i m a i. m a i m. a i m a. . Here, it is interesting to delve a bit on this transformation into binary because when one applies the "shift" (the moving over of the starting finger - see the third point) things start to make sense; all of a sudden things start grooving!

6- Another transformation which will warp everything some more. Take the initial i m a , repeat it: i m a. i m a and in the second grouping exchange the order of the first two notes ( i m becomes m i ) so one obtains : i m a. m i a. Now, loop that over open string combinations.

7- Apply this " new" formula ( i m a. m i a ) to the various string combinations, shift (move over) the starting finger, accentuate into binary-feel and last but not least change the initial "direction" of i. m. a. into a. m. i.

Rombsix, are you dizzy yet??

Well, I found that for me - and I'm certainly NOT a flamenco-adept or expert - just fooling around with some of these picado-techniques has greatly enhanced my fluidity and considerably forced me to want to slow down quite a bit and see, feel and smell more of the music I'm playing.

Cheers!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2010 0:08:33

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to greeny)

quote:

two books published within the context of the Escuela Oscar Herrero and are written one by Jorge Cardoso and the other by Juan Lorenzo

can you tell us about these books? maybe a review in the review section?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2010 5:55:29

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to mark indigo)

I think the best information concerning these books is best obtained at the source.

http://www.acordesconcert.com/

And the didactic collection is at:

http://www.acordesconcert.com/AConcertEn/didactica.html

For myself I've purchased a few of them at my local guitar store here in town, and I highly recommend them to any guitar player. They reflect intelligence, quality and great musicality which is rather rare these days.

Check out all the inspirational products on offer at the Escuela Oscar Herrero.

G.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2010 11:52:02

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Technique questions (in reply to greeny)

quote:

Rombsix, are you dizzy yet??

Quite... I'll have another read after I'm done with my final-year exams.

Gracias!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2010 14:24:48