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Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
Tough times with the guitar
So I'm feeling pretty negative about my playing right now and I'm thinking, other students must have gone through the same thing at some point in their studies so want to check it out with you.
I've been playing for 3 years, and I can play quite a lot of stuff and I've done a fair bit of performing. I think what has got me through that is that have some understanding of the music through also learning to dance and spending a lot of time in Spain and listening. But before this I had never played guitar so have no knowledge of technique and to be honest I still sometimes don't know where a note is on the fretboard without working it out!
Well a few weeks ago I said to my teacher, OK I don't want to learn any new stuff I just want to play basic stuff well, with the right tone, and feeling. No fancy falsetas, just basic compas really well. You know like when you listen to a great player playing some basic compas, well it's just amazing - doesn't need to do clever runs and fast alzapua - that's what I want to be able to do. He agreed that it was a good time to really look at the detail so that's what we've been doing.
But it's so frustrating. I feel like I actually can't play more than a few notes in a row that are absolutely right. At first I thought well this is just something to get through, and when I'm through it my playing will really have benefited. But I'm just finding it so tough I don't feel so sure any more. Am wondering about taking a little break and maybe coming back refreshed? We talked about that in another post recently.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
hey ailsa, i think these tough times happen with everyone. i mean, look at paco, he doesn't sound like he'll EVER be satisfied with himself! and it's PACO!
all i'm seeing from your post is that you really love the guitar. it takes someone who really loves the guitar to want to improve so badly that they feel depressed when don't get there. so even though you're feeling low, just know that it's just the low point of the journey that you're supposed to go through anyways.
take it easy on yourself and you have to remind yourself that billions of people on this earth don't even have a hobby or anything to be passionate about, nothing to strive for!
sometimes i get really busy and stressed or really upset and disappointed with myself, but underneath, there's an undercurrent of joy because i know that i'm doing what i love to do.
so keep playing and keep loving it! good times and bad times happen in love, it's only natural.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Yeah Ailsa, no worries. This phases are normal. Even if they take longer. Also from my own experience , i can tell you that whenever you expect something impatiently and want to force it, it doesn't happen, but when you just leave it to its own and let everything flow without expecting anything, then you improve unexpectedly.
Anyway, a few days break in such phases can't be wrong eaither. Just forget about Guitar few days and dance!
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
hey, ailsa
I agree with at leo. keep doing it because you love it. I think we all have the same feelings at some point, especially when some guys make it look so easy. I feel just like you all the time. If guitars weren't so expensive, mine would already be in several tiny pieces - I feel like throwing it across the room at least a few times every week.
So, for as frustrating as it is, why do I keep playing?...because I couldn't imagine doing anything else.
(and 3 years is not very long. you know those 15 year old kids that already play circles around most of us? I bet most of them have already been playing for 5-10 years)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to at_leo_87)
I'm excited for you, this sounds like progress is happening, just that it's not yet manifest in your playing.
I tend to pull at least some fundamental aspect of my technique/music apart every 12-18 months, it pays off.
I have learnt to be open to these times when it feels like everything is pulled apart and in pieces on the floor. Having been through a few and come out the other side with more depth, I now see them as exciting times because it is always possible to grow wherever we're at.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
This sounds pretty strange. I think it is time for you to sell your guitar on ebay.
Just kidding. Guitar is not easy. Flamenco is especially tough. Many high level players develop on ego early on because of the obstacles they have overcome along the way regarding simply basic techniques. Just to play compas good has tons of technique requirments. Let me ask...has it made you cry yet? The guitar I mean. I mean literally bring tears cuz she won't behave the way you want her to. I think if this has not ever happened to you along the way, then you are not that serious about mastering the guitar. You have to give her A LOT of your attention, and at some point she WILL give back.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Hey Ailsa,
Don't feel negative about it.
Your 3 years have been well spent learning the broad aspects of everything.
Now is the time to start some serious learning, by looking at everything from the ground up in detail.
That's not going "backwards" or anything. Anything but!
Take a joy in it. You can get a real kick out of playing some solid compás for hours with good, strong and clean rasgueados and with a Flamenco sound and feel. It's inspiring...almost like meditation!
Let others who want to "fast track" race on and learn all sorts of twiddly complicated stuff that they can only half play with a half-assed approximated compás. They are not "ahead" of you, but only accumulating heaps of material that they play poorly.
You've got to enjoy what you are playing or there is no point to it IMO.
All the major guitarists have that quality of being addicted to the guitar, no matter what aspect or level they are focussing on.
If you keep comparing yourself to the top guitarists playing the killer falsetas, then you will always be unhappy with your playing and never really enjoy playing Flamenco.
Geez...there can be a WORLD in spending an hour just playing a single chord in various ways and listening to the tone and attack and how it can be varied etc! Can keep you occupied for ages if you love the sound of the guitar!
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M You can get a real kick out of playing some solid compás for hours with good, strong and clean rasgueados and with a Flamenco sound and feel.
Ron that's exactly my frustration, because that's exactly what I want to do and I can't do it! I don't care about the falsetas. What does it for me is listening to a player really groove. This morning in my lesson I couldn't even get through one single compas and feeling it was absolutely right. And not through a lack of compas, but just crap technique. My hand position isn't right, and that just affects everything.
Well thanks for your thoughts all. At least I know I'm not alone with the frustration. I'm going to put my dance shoes on now and stamp my feet a bit - that usually makes me feel better.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
Ron that's exactly my frustration, because that's exactly what I want to do and I can't do it!
Well you can't just WISH for it. It won't come by itself.
But you CAN do it. It's called focussed practising.
Make a loop of an mp3 of ANY compás section you want to learn.
Play it back over and over again. Loop bits of it. Play that over and over again.
Use Amazing slowdowner or whatever.
Then pick up the guitar and start copying it EXACTLY. Try various ways to get the same sound that you are hearing. Listen very carefully and be critical.
You are not going to do it in an hour.
It may take you all day...and all of the next day...and the next...
Don't give up. Be determined. Don't see it as something dead basic but something dead DIFFICULT and an accomplishment to get right.
THAT's practising basic Flamenco...NOT working your way through a page or two of tabs.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
So I'm feeling pretty negative about my playing right now
Ailsa this wouldnt have anything to do with having just come back from a Gerardo Nuñez concert would it? I nearly quit the guitar the first time I saw Eduardo Niebla about age 17 and again when i first saw Paco. Sometimes those guys really make the whole thing seem pointless and it it can be more frustrating than inspiring. I think everyone has down times with guitar or music or flamenco. learning isnt a continual upward curve. You improve in jumps. Stick out the flat times and you will edventually find it gets easier!
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Pimientito)
No idea what's brought it on really Pim. Just feel that after 3 years I ought to be happy with my basic compas in the most common palos, and I'm just not.
quote:
Well you can't just WISH for it.
Duuuuuhhhhh!!! Tell me something I don't know lol.
quote:
Don't see it as something dead basic but something dead DIFFICULT and an accomplishment to get right
OK now that's an interesting thought and one I hadn't considered. I thought the falsetas were the difficult bit and I'm not even trying those! I'll spend some time with that idea.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Take a little time off to recharge. By "a little" I mean a week.
Surround yourself (live and recorded) with the music you want to play. Youtube is an amazing resource you can use to learn from all types of players. Example- Ive played guitar in general for 20 years. I have a degree in classical guitar, and have only in the past 2 years been heavily practicing flamenco. There's a part of my siguiriyas that I play a certain way because I saw your video and liked how you played it. We all have something to learn/teach others.
Play with metronome and/or compás recordings.
Play slower. Everyone can play perfect- its just a matter of how slow you have to play to achieve it. Get in your "perfection tempo" and stay there during practice.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
What does it for me is listening to a player really groove. This morning in my lesson I couldn't even get through one single compas and feeling it was absolutely right.
I have said before you can get the mechanics of strumming rhythm in a week, but it takes YEARS to get all the details of dynamics and such till you feel you are doing it "right" but can still improve. I have repeated many times even with Rumba, I am still improving by just strumming rhythm with other good players, fixing and refining small details with each repeat. And every time I look back and think "man I can't believe how much i was sucking doing this last year!!!".
Anyway, you saw the falseta of tomatito I did. Well you can actually approach compas strumming the same way, and in fact I DO when I hear a new compas detail in some player, old or new. No need to get frustrated playing the full compas over and over. Just take a small chunk, like 2 or 3 beats and get frustrated with just THAT! But do it over and over, not in the full compas, just the small phrase. Then add to it only 2 or 3 more beats. Like that, and keep repeating over and over and over and over, just like I was doing. And don't add on any more till you are somewhat satisfied.
Seems tedious, but I notice results in short time that way, rather than doing the entire thing half assed (as ron said) over and over, never fixing important details.
Hang in there. Remember also the deal with learning new things, sometimes it takes a day or 2 for your brain to connect the wiring after your fingers figure it out.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to M.S.A.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: M.S.A.
but I learned - guitar is mercyful enough to give you back what you've already given to her. so have no worries - if you love your guitar, she will love you too.
cheers
A guitar is like a woman. Very mysterious.
I mean i loved the Guitar since the very first day, but she is very moody!
Don't expect to get back everything you give to her. Just be happy with the few moments of Joy.
Anyway, some guitars are even kind of masochistic and they don't like to be treated soft and smooth.
Play HARD and beat her, and you get what you want!
(Ailsa don't read this, that doesn't apply to you and your guitar of course )
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
quote:
Play HARD and beat her, and you get what you want!
Phew, Arash...you'll have half the guys here running their head under cold water!
Actually, some women play HARD and beat their men to get what they want...
Like wash the dishes and take the dog out to pee...
cheers,
Ron
Yeah i know Ron. My Guitar is the only woman i beat to get what i want. Other than that, i am the persian guy in this video. (i know you only get 20% of the joke in this video, but we have some iranians here in the foro, they get it 100%)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Ailsa. Here is a clip of an after concert interview with PDL.I'm not sure if you understand but at around 2:44, the interviewer asks him if he wants to play the 7 string russian guitar and Paco says he does not want to play the 6 or 7 string guitar. He says the guitar is a very difficult instrument that requires too much effort. He says it is very complex. When he is done playing, he shows his teeth just making the point how tiring and physically demanding it is. So there you have it from The Maestro of Maestros.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
other students must have gone through the same thing at some point in their studies so want to check it out with you.
yeah, about every 3 years
quote:
I've been playing for 3 years
you're about due for a crisis then!
seriously, i've been learning/studying/playing/performing flamenco guitar for about 17-18 years and i'm still nowhere near where i want to be with it.
at the moment i'm playing for dance classes and practises so mostly i'm playing compas for that stuff, and apart from that i'm pretty much just working on technique. I've been back to the beginning so many times, starting again from basics is the only way i know of really improving, and i have come to enjoy the process.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Ailsa:
Here's what I think, although it's nothing new because other people are saying about the same thing.
quote:
I don't care about the falsetas. What does it for me is listening to a player really groove.
Grooving can be even harder than falsetas because it all happens so fast. I think that, just as you need to have at least a few falsetas in order to make it fly, grooving requires a certain number of short ideas to keep it from sounding too repetitive. IMO it's a minimum of 5-6 ideas for each of the compás segments 1-3, 7-10 and 10-12. So let's say 20 short ideas, and of course a few ways to do a whole compás (rasgueados, arpeggios, etc.) When you multiply that by the number of palos that you want to play, it's a lot of ideas to memorize! Especially when you consider that, even though we're talking about rhythmic styles, there will be at least two toques for each one (por arriba or medio, alegrías in E, A or C, etc.) So there's a lot of information to be memorized, aside from the technical challenges of the instrument.
When I get tired I learn new material. It's like taking a breath before speaking. So the frustration comes and goes, but it's really important to keep expanding those two repertoires of short ideas and falsetas. Three years is not long at all.
Arash: Is that you singing then? That's excellent! If you ever notice any similarity between a specific cante and Persian singing, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ailsa
@Arash - no idea what he's singing about in the video but it's great singing - really nice melody.
Instead of a gift, i gave my heart to her. I don't care what people say. I don't have a house. I don't have a car. I don't have a mobile Phone (LOOOL). But i love her.
I am "Zanzalil" (translation: a man who is ruled and dominated by his wife and who has nothing to say in the house and very Submissive LOL). Oh god i am so "Zanzalil" Oh god i am so "Zanzalil"....
And so on........
---
This is as good as some Letra from Gypsies Ailsa LOL
Actually the guy is a comedian, even though he has a good voice
Norman: no thats not me, i use a dishwasher Anyway joking aside, there are lot of similarities between some old style persian singing and Cante. I have tons of material. I will look and let you know what could be interesting for you.
Posts: 2699
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Just feel that after 3 years I ought to be happy with my basic compas in the most common palos, and I'm just not.
I was exactly the same!! I remember thinking I've been working my ass off at this for ages now but if someone said play this or that....I probably couldn't have (not solidly and without blunders anyway)
It's really only recently after about 7 years that I sort of feel like I've got some of it down.... and even now I still don't really know what the hell I'm doing.
I bet you can play a better siguiriyas than me!!!!! ive barely touched that palos apart from with in Tonys workshop! (something about it makes me wanna steer clear....dunno why, but thats anther thread)
I'd say just stick with it but I think you will anyway.
I will say again that these times of frustration are usually followed by times of reward. so id predict that in a week or so after putting some of this advice into practice...youl recoieve a massive boost.
Ailsa, i went through the same mood when i decided to study fandangos de huelva, i think other members know what i'm talking about... OMG. i wonder what's harder, nailing down the first buleria or the first fandango de huelva, this FdH palo made me nearly crazy, it's so tricky... my FhH went better as soon as i stoped trying to count, to control everything with my brain. it's strange, the more you try to do your best studying a palo with "scientific" approach, the more it kills the natural flow in a short run. that's why i switched to another palo i simply try to enjoy while playing and taking away all the pressure. sit down in your beautiful garden, play a simple rumba, enjoy... this brings inspiration back to you.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
I've been playing for 3 years, and I can play quite a lot of stuff and I've done a fair bit of performing. I think what has got me through that is that have some understanding of the music through also learning to dance and spending a lot of time in Spain and listening. But before this I had never played guitar so have no knowledge of technique and to be honest I still sometimes don't know where a note is on the fretboard without working it out!
Ailsa, if I may, perhaps you should allow yourself some diversion from flamenco. Ricardo, Todd and Jason –to name a few- are awesome musicians, before they are formidable flamenco guitarists. I enjoyed Todd’s channel on youtube (before I even had a chance to exchange greetings on this and other blogs), particularly because he shows skillful versatility as he enjoys playing classical, blues and country music while winning the Tomatitio contest. Jason too has rock & roll and classical guitar to sharpen his nails with. And perhaps what we, the “gringos” of Flamenco cannot grasp of flamenco by not being Gitanos, Gypsies or Andalucian made, we compensate with the inevitable osmosis of our own culture and heritage into the music we choose to perform.
Focusing solely on one style of music is inherently dangerous, particularly when –as it is your case- you missed the playful time with the guitar as a teenager, whether the Stratocaster noise or more soporific Bach’s partitas days.
Nothing wrong with finding the same music a bit monotonous. My humble suggestion is that you should expand your repertory, your technical palette, your appreciation of any music you can play on those six nylon strings.
On a personal note, after completing my entry for the Composition Challenge I realized how much I miss playing other music, yet how much studying Flamenco has helped me. As I wrote to Jim Opfer after submitting my composition “I now need to decide whether to really focus on Flamenco and hire a teacher or revert to the country music which inexorably sneaks into anything I play”.
Have fun with the guitar, even if you should become a professional, follow the scent of fun… it will lead you to whatever is cooking inside of you.
Posts: 1596
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
Ailsa this wouldnt have anything to do with having just come back from a Gerardo Nuñez concert would it?
Ailsa, some 15 year ago I attented a workshop with Paco Serrano. It was horrible! There were 20-30 guys in the course, all playing simultaneously, all levels, from semi-pro on down. Paco and a friend of his would show us a falseta ("y ahora tu"), and too bad for you (i.e. me) if you didn't grasp it immediately. I went there feeling I was an intermediate flamenco player and came back feeling I was the worst in the class, had no idea of the guitar etc. etc. Within about a year I stopped playing altogether, I was so frustrated. About a year and a half ago, my interest revived, I visited Anders, ordered a blanca, and have been playing again ever since. It took me about year to reach my old (mediocre) level. This year I feel I'm making progress.
RE: Tough times with the guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
Ailsa, I have had the same issues as you from time to time and it seems like many of us here go through the same feelings. I watch vids and performances and then think why do I waste my time? I'll never get this down correctly. It can be very frustrating and rewarding all at the same time as I go from being depressed to being inspired!
Others have said the same thing, but the guitar is a difficult instrument, especially Flamenco. Lots of right and left hand techniques to master, strange meter, coordinating with the cante and baile and of course making it all look easy! I may never be as good as some of the fine players on this forum but I draw immense enjoyment from playing and now recently performing. All I want to do is be true to the art at what ever level I can manage at this time in my life and try not and measure myself against others.
Remember that playing an instrument is a continuum of progress with plateaus and growth spurts. I'm only able to get about 1.5 hours of practice in a day so I can't expect the same results as someone devoting 4 or more hours per day. I think we have to be realistic with our expectations and try to enjoy every minute of playing, learning and performing this wonderful art form!
Thanks everyone who responded. This really is an astonishing online community. When people I have never even met PM me with helpful suggestions and practical offers of help - you know who you are - well, I am just astonished, and really happy to be part of the Foro. It's really fantastic.
Well I gave myself today off. Tomorrow I'm going to start again with some more positive attitudes: That this is an opportunity to improve, not anything to be downhearted about That the level of perfection I want - even when playing something straightforward - is still difficult Not to compare myself with others - just to improve on what I am now Use Ricardo's "adding at little at a time" learning technique with compas