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So today I was listening to a bunch of contemporary guitar stars. And I was thinking.... damn, these guys all sound just like Paco. Or are trying to. And not quite reaching it, of course.
Ramon Montoya sounded better than those who came before. Sabicas sounded better than him. And Paco sounded even better than Sabicas. And they all innovated.
And now the current generation.... are weaker versions of what Paco was doing in the 80s.
Sweet.
Hey, I got an idea. What if we all give up trying to be Paco.
And we play better than Paco.
That's right. Paco played better than those who came before. So whoever wants to be the "next Paco" better damn well play better than him.
And I'm sure that would bring a smile to the old fisherman's face.
And you know what I'm thinking? Let's drop all this super-studio-production-reverb multitrack ****. Anyone can piece together 34934093409 different takes and edit the **** out of it and throw on effects and make it sound pristine.
But guess what.
It loses something.
And isn't that something, that dirtiness, the very essence of flamenco itself?
Who did this to us? It was the record companies. They told us all guitar recordings had to sound the same, and it had to be so clean blah blah or no one would buy our record.
**** that ****, you can't even sell records anymore. Let's bring it back. Let it sound real baby.
Some may view this as a haughty theoretical debate. Well it ain't for me. If I don't play, I don't eat. This is damn real to me.
And I got some videos coming up for you guys, answering everyone's questions. They will be up on Friday. Keep sending me emails, I apologize but I don't always have time to read all the replies in the foro.
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
I agree with a lot of what you say guitarrista.
I miss going to a Flamenco guitar concert where it was just a guy with a guitar, nada mas.
That's why I tend to like "live" recordings or stuff off YouTube these days.
I don't mind a little mistake or fluff here and there...it doesn't bother me at all, but actually rather emphasises the difficulty of the particular run etc...and the guy's ability to get through it!
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
I'm looking forward to your videos, much appreciated.
But what is exactly your goal in flamenco? you want to be a "proffesional" and be the new paco? I just play for fun, and I dont care if I sound like someone else, I wish I sounded like paco
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
sweet dreams.
And so was the dream of Francisco Sanchez, a little ten year old boy in Algeciras (or as they call it "el quinto coño") who dreamed that one day he could feed his family.
And so was the dream of Fedor Emelianenko, a fat russian kid from a poor family who was short and undersized for his weightclass, who had no access to fancy ass equipment or dieticians or famous trainers, but one day he dreamed he could be the baddest man on the planet.
And so was the dream of 23 year old Trent Reznor, who couldn't even get a proper job in a small town recording studio, so he offered to be their janitor. And when he made a demo with their gear late at night, the record labels told him it would be an "abortion".
Those were very sweet dreams indeed. Is my dream sweet? Damn right it is.
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
well, i think its good to set ones sights high and be even overambitious, but you should also be realistic, to avoid deep dissapointment.
there is maybe one paco in 50 years.
not even other pros. like Gerardo , Tomatito, or your teacher El Entri would ever say that they wanted to be BETTER than paco. they want to be themselves and recognisable with own style, etc.
if your dream is really to be BETTER than paco, then good luck.
i think its better to have a more realistic dream though.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
mmmm let me ask you somthing ... you wanna play better than paco ... but is there such a level higher than Paco ? I'm NO.1 fan of Paco .... but also I'm not saying that he is a God ... I have heard him many times saying that he plays guitar about 12 and more hours a day .. for me this is impossible to do .. not coz I can't hold the guitar too long in contrast I wish I have the time to play my guitar all the day long but I have to work I have to feed my self and stay alive . so if you're trying to beat him good luck but I don't think that there is anyone that could be better .. coz he mastered the flamenco guitar in my opinion he's at the top .
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
I don't think that there is anyone that could be better
Let's rewind time about 40 years and see how many people were saying this about Nino Ricardo. What was it that Segovia said about Paco back in the day? That all his supposed technique was just "plucking"?
Dude think of how many people said Segovia was an "untouchable god". And how's his playing looking in comparison to Paco's these days.
Hey everybody, listen up. Is the conception of your supposed "gods" actually encouraging you to pursue your own dreams? Or have they become more like an excuse, for why you should not even bother to try.
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
quote:
The real is what you make it.
The real is within you.
I'm not a big fan of cliché quotes, probably because they arent true. "Succes" is just 99 procent luck imo. also, succes is something different then happiness. Personally, it wont make me happy to play 12 hours a day, there's so much other things in this world then the guitar!
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
And for anyone who wants to know the secret of how to be better than Paco, guess what, it's not that hard to see.
It's the composition.
12 hours a day playing guitar technique? You think that's gonna take your music to the highest level? You're wasting time buddy. Let me introduce you to Mr. Johann Sebastian
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarristamadrid And you know what I'm thinking? Let's drop all this super-studio-production-reverb multitrack ****. Anyone can piece together 34934093409 different takes and edit the **** out of it and throw on effects and make it sound pristine.
Come on, you know its not that easy. I am against doubleing guitar parts, coz i want to be able to play it on my own. But all the rest is just icing on the cake. What counts is the player. Improved recording technology just leads to pleasant acoustics, thats all. Instead of crappy sound, you get pleasant sound, but that doesnt mean that any flamenconess is taken away. What counts is what and how you play. Thats the music. How you pick up the music is another thing IMO.
Some of the old recordings are so bad, i cant even listen to them. But in general you are right. Paco has lead to more perfectionism in playing and recording. I see it positive, like he is an inspiration, setting the bar higher.
And just for the record: Paco is king, but there are players that i prefer over Paco any day, most of them have been to your school Evan!
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
mmm I don't really know what did you mean by *** It's the composition. *** did you mean Composing ? ... well I think that playing flamenco music depends on the Technique in the first place .. its flamenco man if you think that the melody is more important than the technique then you're a classical guitar player not a flamenco player . **for me** flamenco is all about technique and improvisation . while caring about the harmonic stuff its classic stuff . and playing the guitar 12 hours a day ( I wish I could do it ) sure it will take me to the highest levels. . anyway I don't want to kill your dreams I wish you all the best I hope that one day you'll be famous and I'll be able to buy ur albums .
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
If we ever evolve to live longer so that our prime comes, say, 10 years later, we'd soon have guitarists technically better than Paco. For now though I think Paco has just about reached the human limit.
Paco changed flamenco and set a new standard. So really it's not that everyone sounds like Paco, just that they all play flamenco which has been deeply influenced by him. Vicente Amigo, Gerardo Nuñez, Chicuelo, Tomatito, Diego del Morao, they all have their style that I can distinguish when I listen.
But why try to be better than Paco anyways? For the sake of competition? It's just torturing yourself. I don't think his goal was ever to be better than another guitarist. Be the best YOU can be. There's a lot of great music out there, who cares if it's better than Paco?
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
quote:
And for anyone who wants to know the secret of how to be better than Paco, guess what, it's not that hard to see.
It's the composition.
12 hours a day playing guitar technique? You think that's gonna take your music to the highest level? You're wasting time buddy. Let me introduce you to Mr. Johann Sebastian
Good luck with all that, dude...
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to John O.)
quote:
Be the best YOU can be.
I totally agree. You see, comparing yourself to others is actually just a trick; it's a tool to reach deeply into yourself and find YOUR own true potential.
But if you start with the conception "person X is way better than I will ever be", then if you never make it is far as you wished you could go, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Composition. Composition. Composition. I cannot say it enough! Let's be dead honest: there is no living flamenco artist who is a truly excellent composer.
You can take the musical ideas of Bach and even a half assed player can play them on a half assed instrument, and they will still sound amazing. Why? Because they are incredibly well crafted ideas.
Why can Vicente mop the floors with Nunez? Cause for all of Nunez' technique, the dude needs to revisit Composition 101. Vicente ain't exactly an all time great in the musical idea creation department, but he knows what a melody is, and shows flashes of compositional talent. And that has been enough to take him to a higher level than any other flamenco guitarist, probably even Paco.
Those who would be musicians, heed this: great composition beats great technique any day of the week.
But don't use that as an excuse to not study technique.
quote:
Good luck with all that, dude...
I don't believe in luck. -E
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
Evan you have great positive energy and focus. Dont let anybody here bring you down, and stay realistic. If anybody is going to accomplish anything in this world, whatever it may be, then they need an attitude like yours; it gets things done!
Remember that Paco broke the mold and went down a completely new and unique path. His innovation, along with amazing technique and vision, is probably what shot him to the top.
You have the drive. Just focus your energy in the right direction and stay grounded. You yourself said that Vicente has surpassed Nuñez because of harmony, so maybe thats the direction to head in, and not necesarily being better then Paco technique wise.
But here is an interesting question: what do you want out of Flamneco? Fame and fortune? or do you want people to listen to your music and who cares if you make it big? The reason I ask is because everybody knows Otmar Liebert, but few know Vicente Amigo or Gerardo Nuñez.
Just my thoughts. I really do wish you the best of luck and I applaud your fresh spirit and confidence.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
Well, I think as far as Popular music goes, then anyone with the right thing that catches the moment, or has that certain X factor can be a success. We've seen that with one-hit wonders that have shot to Number 1 and have remained in our memories. ("Tiptoe thru the Tulips"...."Whiter Shade of Pale"..."Shut Up ya Face"...etc etc...)
But to become "the next big thing", setting a new standard in a highly Ethnic music such as Flamenco without at least being brought up in that culture and playing from an early age, but just discovering in in your late teens or twenties as a foreigner, is highly improbable.
To become an excellent guitarist who is respected as a good player by the Flamenco community...YES...that's possible with a lot of work and exposure to the art. (Tino, Amir...etc)
But to be admired to the level of PdL or Tomatito etc?
Nah!...can't see it!... No way!
To make it as a guitarist playing Spanishy/Latin style music in the non-Flamenco world like Esteban or The Otter?
Yeah sure, that's possible although that scene is rapidly becoming overpopulated now with all sorts of guitarists trying to get into the act.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to fevictor)
Hey thanks man, I appreciate it. Sometimes people don't notice, but my relentless and doubt-crushing attitude is actually something I have been working on far longer than my guitar technique.
The reason I took on flamenco was probably because it was the most challenging guitar style I could find. If I wanted fame, I'd become a politician or an actor. Fortune, and I'd be a hedge fund manager.
What I want out of flamenco can't really be separated from what I want out of music in general: to create something real. Something that means something to someone the same way Hurt meant something to me when I first heard it. And maybe even more than that, to prove that the "limits" come from only within our own minds. That's my passion right there.
And don't worry, if I ever run into Mr. Liebert, he will leave our encounter in tears.
-E
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
quote:
I totally agree. You see, comparing yourself to others is actually just a trick; it's a tool to reach deeply into yourself and find YOUR own true potential.
But if you start with the conception "person X is way better than I will ever be", then if you never make it is far as you wished you could go, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Composition. Composition. Composition. I cannot say it enough! Let's be dead honest: there is no living flamenco artist who is a truly excellent composer.
You can take the musical ideas of Bach and even a half assed player can play them on a half assed instrument, and they will still sound amazing. Why? Because they are incredibly well crafted ideas.
Why can Vicente mop the floors with Nunez? Cause for all of Nunez' technique, the dude needs to revisit Composition 101. Vicente ain't exactly an all time great in the musical idea creation department, but he knows what a melody is, and shows flashes of compositional talent. And that has been enough to take him to a higher level than any other flamenco guitarist, probably even Paco.
Those who would be musicians, heed this: great composition beats great technique any day of the week.
But don't use that as an excuse to not study technique.
You shouldn't be so dogmatic about music if you're planing to be become the next Paco, just some friendly advise.
Vicente can mop the floors with Nunez acording to who you? I mean this things are a mather of taste and opinion why even compare them this way? They have different musical ideas and methods of reaching theme whether it may be by "composition" or with technique. I don't se the difference if you're goal is expressing yourself musically use your own way to get there?
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
Evan I don't want to offend you... but you sound a little bit arrogant. saying vicente shows flashes compositional talent? sorry but thats idiotic and arrogant. btw your "compositions" are also not that great, so why are you judging all those other (imo really great) guitarists? Ofcourse I wish you all the best,you are enthusiastic for sure, but maybe you should show some respect or at least focus more on yourself then what other guitarist are doing.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)
quote:
saying vicente shows flashes compositional talent? sorry but thats idiotic and arrogant.
Compare Vicente's best work to any classical composer. Go listen to Bach's worst fugue ever. Yes, that's why Vicente gets the "Flashes of talent" award.
And if you're ready to have your mind blown, listen to this:
Vicente is a big fish in a small pond. The standard of flamenco composition is low.
And as to your definition of "arrogance", I would argue that it's only arrogance if you can't back it up. If you can, it's called "realism".
So get back to me 20 years, and let's see what I'm composing then.
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)
quote:
btw your "compositions" are also not that great
Yeah, they're just the best I can do at the moment. 'Formation' is the first thing I ever composed, about 2 months ago. And hey, it already employs more variation, development, repeated themes, coherency, and originality than most flamenco falsetas.
Why? Because I actually tried very earnestly to employ those things, whereas most flamenco guitarists have not even heard of them, and couldn't care less about them.
So after I have spent 20 years applying the same intensity to composition that I apply to everything else in my life, let's see what I come up with.
_____________________________
Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
smile to the old fisherman's face,
Vincent is a big fish , hey man i like fishing too,
and i like your energy to, some thing for me when i played jazz, just all day and it worked, no injurys maybe as i was in decent shape and in 20;s.
i think Fevictor gavegreat points, go with that man its refreshing to hear some enthusiasm , dont worry about other plays your are Evan , and wel all go down the path finding ourselves and you are rapidly with flamenco / guitar.
always look forward to ur posts nabd love to see some scale exercises in the style you sent th chords to us , its really cool m and really brilliant stuff!.
RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)
"Keep away from those who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you believe that you too can become great.” - Mark Twain
But look after yourself, because you may need your body to function well over a period of time to achieve the stamina, experience etc. that your mind and heart desires, eh ? Pace is everything.
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