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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating the general public.
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flybynight
Posts: 121
Joined: Aug. 14 2009
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 RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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For 99.5% of people, I suspect trying to teach them anything about flamenco is a lost cause. If 0.1% of people know about it, and you're trying to convince the other 0.4% who might be open to pursuasion then great.
It's like enjoying wine, or anything that requires you to go on an 'appreciation journey' - a nice phrase that was coined on this forum ?
If you don't know about red wine, they all taste the same. And the same with the subtleties behind the flamenco palos.
Also, it depends on the audience that you're trying to convince.
Try explaining to a jazz musician how flamenco puro has a high degree of variety and improvisation, and in the same breath describe it's musical structure.
Try explaining to someone who has heard the Gypsy Kings, and just wants to bop along to something vaguely spanish, that Siguirillas is a must-listen-to.
Try explaining to a non-spanish speaker who can't even understand what is being sung, how beautiful it would be if they did understand it.
At least wine is instantly accessible, in the sense that you get drunk, even if you don't much like the taste, so the appreciation journey has just begun right there.
Just too many barriers to entry for flamenco for most people.
However, all is not lost.
If you intended audience is beautiful young woman who seems a little confused and intimidated by all this flamenco stuff, take her aside, be sure to be quite condescending and disappointed with her misunderstanding, and explain how you thought someone as beautiful and smart as her would instinctively understand the mystery, subtlety and emotional beauty behind it all.
Trap set. Walk away. Then when she comes to you to ask what you mean, get her phone number.
Flamenco's mysteries and beauty aren't available to most people - thankfully - let's be happy this is a cult interest, but this can be very useful sometimes, no ?
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Date Mar. 20 2010 1:24:23
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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hmmm.... ok, ok. i think maybe the title of the thread is a little bit misleading. i'm not interested in the general public, just those who are interested and took some step towards learning, by either going to a show or to this forum.
for example, i know nothing about wine. but if i ever go to a wine tasting party or whatever, it'd be nice if someone explained the differences to me. i know i would appreciate it and enjoy my time there more, and who knows, maybe i'd want to learn more.
here's a good real life example. i went to this modern composition concert once. at first, i thought it was the most ridiculous sounding thing ever. a bunch of pretentious, atonal, rhythm-less nonsense. it sounded like noise. i couldn't wait to get out of there. but then i read the program they provided, which included a little information about each piece. then all of a sudden, i saw something i didn't see before and began to actually enjoy the show.
same thing happened when i went to some modern dance show. i hated modern dance before i went. but at the beginning of the show, they explained a bit about modern dance and even took the time to break it down and show some poses. after that concert, i understood modern dance better and can even appreciate it a little. that's a far way from hating something.
so imagine the people who go to flamenco shows or to this forum who are already interested. giving them some background info can only help deepen their interest. so why not?
the idea is to slap together some good solid info, call it an article, stick it here in the foro, then print it out as a program for your next show or whatever. not to stand up on a soapbox and hand it out to random people in the street in your underwear, shouting through a megaphone.
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Date Mar. 20 2010 6:38:21
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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If it was impossible or pointless to write about flamenco, then there would be no books or even this forum. I’m going on this based off of my own experiences. My own experiences tell me that this forum and the various books that I have read were incredibly helpful in my learning.
Let’s face it, not everyone has the resources to travel to spain or to buy hundreds of cds. Not everyone is even interested in going that far. I’ll use my wine tasting party example again. If I ever find myself at a wine tasting convention or whatever they hell you winos do, I would find it incredibly helpful if someone or something (ie. A piece of paper) explained the differences to me and gave me some history on each wine. “ok, this one came from blah blah blah, using blah blah blah, and has sat around for blah blah blah.” These little things help, and make it more entertaining.
As for emotions, I just play my best and that’s all I can do in regards to that. If that audience picks up on it, cool. If not, cool. But I don’t think it would hurt to give some background story so that the audience may pick up on it more easily. Solea is a sad song, intended to convey solitude, etc. Just like that time I went to that weird modern composition concert and I had no clue what was going on until I read the program.
I’m repeating myself here. Again, I’m not trying to go out on a crusade here. I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m just trying to find a way to include the audience who gets off their asses and comes out to see us feel more included so they can enjoy the show more. Or for people who come to this forum to learn and discuss.
I don’t see any harm in that. We're even thinking for the next private party, to come up with a tangos where we can show them a simple marking step and remate for everyone to come up and try out. Fun times. I really don't see the evil in that. We're showing them what flamenco is by playing the best we can, handing out cute little silly pamphlets, and maybe even invite them to dance with us. We get to perform and get paid, they have a good time. win-win.
Much better than playing spanishy sounding off topic music and calling it flamenco or playing real flamenco with elitist mindset and saying, "to hell with everyone else. you're an idiot, don't talk to me." IMO.
I’m not expecting some big thorough encyclopedia article. I stated this way in the beginning. I’m looking for something brief, informative, entertaining.
Ok, I'm starting to get grumpy. Let's get back to it already.
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Date Mar. 23 2010 10:24:02
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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Hi Anthony,
This will probably sound much harsher than intended so please don't feel offended:
quote:
Solea is a sad song, intended to convey solitude, etc.
Not really. Whoever said that ("...the various books that I have read...") was probably just trying to make sense of the word "soledad," which is as lame a theory as the old idea that the style was created by a woman named Soledad.
quote:
Let’s face it, not everyone has the resources to travel to spain or to buy hundreds of cds. Not everyone is even interested in going that far.
Those people will never have a developed understanding of what flamenco is. I'm not saying that traveling to Spain is a requirement for everyone (it depends on what you do there, anyway), although it's important for reasons that should be obvious. But it really is necessary to spend years listening to different kinds of flamenco (old and new, from several specific regions, gypsy and non-gypsy, "show" flamenco and "party" flamenco, live and recorded, etc.) It's safe to say that any artist who would be considered talented by a majority of knowledgeable aficionados will have spent many years obsessed with "going that far."
However, as I said in my first post, I don't mean to discourage you (I will point out though that several silly things have already been said, and nobody should be expected to correct them  ). A description of the music itself could be a useful thing, but most people (including many musicians) wouldn't be able to understand the musicological terms. I don't think Agujetas or even Paco de Lucía use the word "Phrygian," for example.
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Date Mar. 24 2010 0:45:49
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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quote:
These little things help, and make it more entertaining.
I saw a Ravi Shankar concert, where he started off on a fun thing explaining some aspects of Indian playing.
He said that in Indian music, anything you can play on Sitar, you can sing and anything you can sing you can play on Tabla.
He then demonstrated this with his Tabla player, each exchanging phrases either on their own instrument or singing "Takataka..."
So why not a fun intro to Flamenco when you first come out, by saying something like...
"Thanks Ladies and Gentlemen for coming along tonight....Some of you may be familiar with Flamenco and some maybe less so, or not at all..."
Then give them a small spiel along the general lines of my first post.
Then give a short fun demo of Flamenco compás..
Start off with somebody clapping single beats in, say an Alegrias while you count out the beats.
Then show how the Dancer interprets that, the dancer doing some steps while you are still counting...
Then another person joins in doing contras...
Then come in with the guitar(s) just playing chords at first then one of you after a while, playing falsetas and showing how the musical falsetas all obey the same rule of compás...
Then introduce the singer with some Ay-yai-yai....
Then get faster and faster and more complex until you get to Bulerias and a great finale...
I guarantee you will get a great applause!
And the audience will love the fact that you respected them and didn't just snootily play over their heads....
And will show much more respect for the rest of the show.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Mar. 24 2010 11:31:54
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
Nah, it's just a really complicated subject. Actually, I wish everyone was as good an aficionado as you seem to be! At the risk of sounding condescending, I'll say that you've taken an important first step.
well, like i said before, i know jack diddly! i'm in admiration of the level of knowledge here, that's why i come to you guys for help. as a beginner, i want to be spoon fed all the info and want the same for other noobs out there. but i'm starting to see it's more complicated than that. maybe there's something you experts see that i haven't caught on to yet.
quote:
I'm kind of with Ricardo here. The other thing is that if you really want a little pamphlet to distribute at parties and stuff, a giant encyclopaedic entry like people have been putting here will just be ignored.
god dammit, i'm repeating myself here. lol. i DON'T want an encyclopedia. i said it in my first post, i'm looking for something BRIEF. ron's example is perfect for pamphlets. the encyclopedia can stay here so we can debate for years to come over small details.
our main dancer has a website with pictures and videos and stuff. i don't think i'm good enough to deserve my own site yet but one day....
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Date Mar. 24 2010 11:38:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: flamenco ignorance, educating th... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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After reading so many posts on this thread, I have concluded that we are getting lost in the weeds here. Why get wrapped around the axle because much of the public does not really understand flamenco? Who cares? Many people attend flamenco concerts, not because they want some academic dissertation on various palos, compas, etc., but because they just like the music. Even if they don't understand it and think of it as "Spanish," as long as they enjoy it, isn't that enough?
When I was first introduced to flamenco (decades ago!), I didn't understand it at all; I just enjoyed the sound of flamenco guitar. It was much later that I took up studying flamenco guitar and became immersed in the history of flamenco, learning about compas, palos, and all the rest. If, after attending a few flamenco performances, a few of the uneducated in the audience are interested enough to follow up and learn more about it, they will. For the rest, in my opinion, it would be enough that they spent an enjoyable evening listening to music they may not understand, but that in some way moved them just the same.
Cheers,
Bill
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Date Mar. 24 2010 16:01:50
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At the risk of sounding condescending, I'll say that you've taken an important first step. 
