RE: Making a living out of Music

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Reinhardt)

quote:

All in all the money we make of gigs will let me be able to rent a place buy petrol and food. We busy making a cd and im starting to give guitar lessons to people that also helps. For a beginning i think i can do really good and im already busy with it thanks :)

Sounds good man. No reason not to try. What's the worst that could happen?
I know there's some way to do it..just not sure what it is. You have to find your audience. That's the absolute key thing. 99% of people that want hear your music (they just don't know it yet) probably live more than 100 miles away from you.
There's a good book called "The Indie Band Survival Guide" that I would recommend. It walks you through basically every aspect of the music business, focusing on internet tools for getting your music out there like Pandora, Last fm, podcasts, myspace, personal website, youtube, etc etc.

I think you can do it but what people are urging you to do here is not take an overly romantic view of the music business unless you really are the next Django Reinhardt or something. People won't just be throwing money at you. It really can be a dirty business and you have to claw your way up. And DON'T GIVE UP!!!

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2010 5:45:04

hobersmith

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 21 2010

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

If you persevere opportunities will arise and you will have your shot at going big.

Depends on what road you want to take... big time concerts are very, very hard; you'll be staying 3-4 days with just 3 hours of sleep..you'll probably be a wreck after a few but the payoff is very good. After that you're living in paradise for a few months. Still it's painful work.

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my flamenco site

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2010 10:05:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Rain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain

He is making music that many people love , it may not be very complicated but who says music needs to be complicated to be good. I for one liked the the piece "The most Evolved" But than again I like people who are creative and can compose much more than trained monkey's who can play a Paco or Sabicas piece. I myself am a trained monkey who can play classical guitar, my interest in improv has lead me to the flamenco guitar.

To think for one moment Entre dos Aguas is different from what John Clarke is doing is absurd, the only thing is John clarke or Ottmar Liebert, and Jesse Cooke keep rewriting Entres Dos Aguas.

Trained monkey's don't work as flamenco players. Pretty much it is a requirement to work in flamenco to know both traditional music AND be creative to some degree. The players that do only solo flamenco guitar compositions of masters, or primarily that's their gig, are few and far between. I can name only 3 off hand, Paco Peña, Grisha, Javier Conde. Masters of preserving the "standards" of the repertoire and perform them in concert, are important for the genre. But your average joe flamenco professional works as an accompanist. Majority of "solistas" or players that can and do give solo concerts, are composers too. The cream of the crop of flamenco accompanists have enough material to perform a solo concert of some sort, regardless if they do or not.

I did not say music that is not complex is not good, nor commercially viable. I was only pointing out the distinction for what it means to WORK in the genre of flamenco vs general music, because I felt reading through this thread the original poster is actually "off topic" with his reasoning that one such as "john clarke" can make it as a pro flamenco guitarist. People giving advice to go to dance class or work with dancers, is irrelavant in this case. That music (spanishy nuevo), and that direction is possible to make some money, but its not like working as a flamenco, and off topic. Please don't make me bring up "fakemenco"....

In addition, it is clear that he (Clarke) as a guitarist is more toward an amature and low level musician.

To say that Entre dos Aguas, or any rumba from a bonafide flamenco player or rumbero for that matter, is the SAME as Ottmar, Cooke or Clarke...is totally wrong. Those guys CAN NOT EVEN STRUM RUMBA for god's sake. That is not even the basic groove of such a song. They can't strum like that infact, based on my observation. They can't do such a job as a "rhythm guitarist por rumba". They simply don't know it. No one that can actually play Entre dos Aguas or even Gypsy Kings songs proplerly, will say what those guys are doing is "rumba".

It may seem like a technique detail, but however you want to see it, that is not the same music feeling or sound or anything. Perhaps they WANT it to be perceived as that, but then why not learn it the right way? I think it is better to say they are doing their own thing, and leave it at that, off topic spanishy guitar.

quote:

I never mentioned that I play Flamenco, I play a few flavoured flamenco fusion stuff and I love the art of flamenco but thats not what I do.
And I dont want to compare my style to flamenco or the style of other people I play. Ricardo it is as if you say im in the wrong place to discuss this ? Well if I am then i would just like to thank the people that understood and gave some good feedback on the topic.

Understood. No problems, just thought it should be made clear where you were headed, vs how some folks offering advice might be thinking about it. (myself included earlier on....). It is important because there are some who view playing that style of music MORE COMMERCIALLY VIABLE then actual flamenco music, and it follows, one would think, it easier to make a "career" out of it. But understand from the point of view of the actual folks who dedicate their time and life to flamenco music, this can be seen as a "sell out" rather then a legit artistic pursuit. Frustrating concept for those that never even wanted to play flamenco in the first place, but just simply like to play the "spanishy" guitar. To be safe, and not snobby, I am thinking this is off topic from "general flamenco". I want to be clear, I was earlier and in past topics, refering to, and felt frustrated by those that feel pursuing actual flamenco is a bad idea and recommend against it to new comers to the genre.

quote:

Ricardo sweetheart no wonder you're struggling career wise, you need to learn about web 2.0 and emerging music business models. Go read Techdirt

Sweekcakes, when did I say my career was struggling???? People I play for and get money from never cared for how many youtube hits I got, that is for sure.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2010 18:59:32

Reinhardt

Posts: 58
Joined: Sep. 10 2008

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

MORE COMMERCIALLY VIABLE

Well if you want to put it like that then yes, I have much respect for flamenco but I guess for alot of reasons im not playing flamenco is that it is very unfamiliar among South Africans. But I play my own style that I shaped and I love what im doing and will never change it. I wish I actualy never mentioned John Clarke but you said they are amature artists well I must honestly say that you guys are very good and would like to become so good and make my own unique style one day mixing flamenco with all sorts of genre's (well thats what I do already)
Thanks again and sorry to those that dedicate their live to Flamenco that I may offended you ^_^
Cheers
Reinhardt

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2010 20:36:58

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
off topic spanishy guitar.

quote:

I wish I actualy never mentioned John Clarke but you said they are amature artists well I must honestly say that you guys are very good and would like to become so good and make my own unique style one day mixing flamenco with all sorts of genre's (well thats what I do already)

I know you want to say a diplomatic version of "I dont care - its my business", but lets be clear, one will never "become so good" by playing Clarke's music. No matter how well you play it, it will never match the artistic value of any flamenco music. That is my opinion. It is normal that you dont see much difference, because i assume you dont have listening experience? So thats normal (not critisizing you).

Lastly, i think you are on a good way. Doing Flamenco would interfere with what you call "creating own unique style". To push the boundaries of flamenco you have to have mastered it before. These are two contrary mindsets, so i think fusion seems to work better with you.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 9:35:07

Reinhardt

Posts: 58
Joined: Sep. 10 2008

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to XXX)

quote:

i assume you dont have listening experience?

No man believe me I do know how to listen thats why i said i love the art of flamenco, why would I not have? Please can we forget i ever mentioned John Clarke cuz a rarely play any of his stuff.

Ive got some good feedback on this thread and doing very well with my music and thats all that counts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 10:00:56

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to XXX)

quote:

mixing flamenco with all sorts of genre's

Well, the thing is none of these Flamingistas are mixing "Flamenco" with anything at all.
They are only mixing their distorted impression of what they think Flamenco is about with something else...(sometimes even a distorted impression of what they think Indian Sitar music or Traditional North African music is about)...and then go on to claim that they are somehow "pushing the boundaries" of these old, complex and unique forms of music without ever having studied or understood any of them to any degree at all other than listening to a few CDs on their HiFi, perhaps coupled with a few weeks holidays in foreign parts which they refer to as "studying" in their literature.

The truth is IMO they are playing a hotchpotch of 4/4 noodling pop stuff and referring to these old and established forms in PR releases and concert programs to somehow give their simple pop music some kind of gravitas, glitz and authenticity when in fact it has none whatsoever.

At least the Cheeky Girls accepted they were doing teenybop, party, bubblegum music and didn't claim John Coltrane, Miles Davis and Shostakovich as being influences.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 10:23:48

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

did not say music that is not complex is not good, nor commercially viable.

No, you did'nt say that it was not complex, I did by my statement.

Paco Pena plays his own material as well. The trained monkey thing is me saying I'm a million times more impressed by some who can compose or create than one who can mimic, in a very harsh way. So basically I'm much more impressed by you and Jason than I am by many others including myself.

Rain

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 10:55:25

Reinhardt

Posts: 58
Joined: Sep. 10 2008

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

and then go on to claim that they are somehow "pushing the boundaries" of these old, complex and unique forms of music

I Would never claim anything for what i havnt achieved and I never again mentioned that I would surpass the flamenco boundries to achieve a unique flamenco spanish fusion style on my own. I said that I have little flamenco influences and I do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 20:27:51

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Here is some of Wills wisdom,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 20:50:15

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to KMMI77)

Not too bad, some of the things there took me painful experience to discover. We could use some of that motivation more in the other thread, "Practice PDL". I like the 3:30 passage where he says about laying one brick at a time to get a wall. Somehow reminds me of the asian idiom(?) that every marathon starts with a first step. But not quite since it is more about perfectionism. I think theres alot to learn from that, to concentrate on what you can do NOW and to do it as perfectly as you can, no matter on which level you are.
He also says that the separation of talent and skill is a misunderstanding. Are you sure you posted this in the right thread?

quote:

hotchpotch of 4/4 noodling pop stuff

Hey Ron, thats kind of outdated language you use. I prefer "off topic spanishy guitar" or F...menco. Dont want to write it out, just replace the 3 dots with letters. Hint: Its not Flamenco

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 1:05:26

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Are you sure you posted this in the right thread?

It was the other thread that reminded me of this video.I decided it was relevant to both though

It's a bit cheesy but it's always worth listening to someone who has achieved so much.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 2:27:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Rain)

quote:

The trained monkey thing is me saying I'm a million times more impressed by some who can compose or create than one who can mimic, in a very harsh way.

don't be so "harsh" on yourself then. To mimic the maestros of flamenco is precisely how one will get a solid traditional base, only after which can one truly create in a legitimate way and still be true to the art form. IMO. Mclaughlin once said he did not believe in true freedom without discipline. Of course he was talking about improvisation, but I think that fits even better to something like flamenco as an art form. I for one would prefer to hear a player simply interpreting or "mimicking" the traditional flamenco well, then this clarke guys's creative ideas, any day. But that is just me.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 5:34:53

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

What's that proverb about all roads leading to one particular place? (Is it Mecca?) It seems all threads on foroflamenco lead to a discussion of Real Authentic Flamenco vs. the fake stuff.

As much as anyone has the right to play what they want to play, I still think that anyone who claims to "Love the Flamenco form" would therefore want to learn the flamenco form. What you do with it after that is completely up to you.

Reinhardt, as much as everyone here surely wishes you luck in your endeavours, if you were to have great sucess in the style of music you mention and became a big star, you would almost surely join the pantheon of fake flamenco artist so despised by the folks here at foroflamenco.

The big difference between the guys who play some kind of fusion and are hated compared to the fusionists that are loved is that the loved variety ALSO know flamenco well. The others are posers and fakers. Take Ketama and Gipsy Kings for example. They know how to play the real thing.

Study the real thing. I'd bet no one on this site would tell you different. Your fusion will have much more authenticity than the artists that you mentioned earlier, who all basically stink to high heaven. Jesse Cook? Sheesh!

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 6:07:24

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

my goal is to be a trained monkey and to be able to copy paco, and some others, like a monkey.

if i should achieve just 50% of this goal one day, i will be the happiest monkey on planet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 6:07:48

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Arash)

quote:

my goal is to be a trained monkey and to be able to copy paco, and some others, like a monkey.

if i should achieve just 50% of this goal one day, i will be the happiest monkey on planet.

I've just always set my standards and goals incredibly low, so that way I remain reasonably happy...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 6:22:04

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The old adage "never give anything away for free, because then you establish its value" is especially appropriate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 7:42:42

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

don't be so "harsh" on yourself then

Thanx for the advice

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 10:28:17

Reinhardt

Posts: 58
Joined: Sep. 10 2008

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I respect the arrogance of all you flamenco artists ^_^ I mean it. Most of you earned it. Respect!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 20:34:11

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Reinhardt)

Sorry if you maybe felt folk were jumping on you, Reinhardt.

It's just that we hear the same stuff time and time again.

It's pretty common actually...even friends I know who are rock musicians and folk players etc, who are sensible enough guys think that in Flamenco you just make it all up as you go along!

Just one big free-for-all where anything goes...just do what you feel.

That includes the singing and dancing!

When you start explaining that there is some sort of structure to this stuff and try to tell them about Flamenco "compás"...their eyes just sort of glaze over and they get restless and bored and change the conversation.

They mainly like the rasgueado, unusual chords and lightning picado bits and that's it...

So you're not alone in your initial impression.

That's why I come here to discuss Flamenco, 'cos it's practically useless trying to share my interest with anybody else I know.

I think that's why some folk think we are a bunch of "snobs" or some kind of "closed club".

I think they'd get the same reaction though if they went on to an English Canal Boat Forum and started a conversation on Powerboat Racing or vice versa.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 5:48:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I think that's why some folk think we are a bunch of "snobs" or some kind of "closed club".

with all due respect, i love you guys, i have the luxury of knowing everyone of you and wouldnt have it anyother way but we kind of fuc*ing ARE!!

the second someone new logs on and is a litlle too confident or thinks he knows a litlle too much... too soon we make sure to remind him of his place

theres only one way to get liked here at the start and thats to put yourself down so much that we will feel bad and encourage you a litlle.....everybody loves a guy with no confidence lol

lets be honest with ourselfs for a second ai

theres alot of snobbey but then in return ...theres so much positive stuff that noone will find on any other forum...also because we have to keep our mouth shut in real life , at gigs and partyes when people tell you about " the best flamenco guitarrist in the world" and about what "flamenco is" and about the new" flamenco" album they got ...i guess we take certain libertys with straight foward speaking here...

Reinhardt dont take it personally, as i said its a combination of some of the things above...flamenco is one of those things only a small hanfull of people dedicate their life studying it but every person out there thinks they "know" what it is.. i think u have handled it really really well...respect to you amigo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:04:24

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

just wanted to say this was an inspiring thread. thank you to everyone who shared their knowledge and positive thoughts.

do flamencos really come off as arrogant to newcomers? what specifically is it that sounds arrogant?

quote:

when people tell you about " the best flamenco guitarrist in the world" and about what "flamenco is" and about the new" flamenco" album they got ...i guess we take certain libertys with straight foward speaking here...

oh god..... i get that like, everyday. but can't we inform them somehow without sounding arrogant? how can we tell folks who try to clap along that they're doing it wrong without sounding like a jerk?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:26:33

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

oh god..... i get that like, everyday. but can't we inform them somehow without sounding arrogant?

yeah you get bored of that after a few years ...besides ...what makes you think they will listen ?

and in a twisted way its a compliment...they trying to make conversation and impress you by showing interest or knowlodge in what you do even if they facts are messed up...its why i smille and let them be happy and appreciate the effort

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:32:15

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Florian)

quote:

and in a twisted way its a compliment...they trying to make conversation and impress you by showing interest in what you do even if they facts are messed up...its why i smille and let them be happy

that's a really good way to think about it. the next time a chick tells me she likes the gypsy kings, i'll just assume she likes me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:35:45

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to at_leo_87)

who cares

....its not my job to educate the masses, no matter how many u educate, there will be the next batch who ve just seen Zorro

just do it and enjoy it, if anyone whats to learn ...they will ask

quote:

that's a really good way to think about it. the next time a chick tells me she likes the gypsy kings, i'll just assume she likes me

i dont know about all that...but id say she is trying to relate to you and make conversation and show some interest or knowlodge in what you do....so yeah, take it as a compliment...

i know that if you take it too seriously and correct her you going home alone

and your message wont get through anyway...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:38:00

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Florian)

LOL.

quote:

i dont know about all that...but id say she is trying to relate to you and make conversation and show some interest or knowlodge in what you do....so yeah, take it as a compliment

okay, so just take it as a compliment. and not jump to the conclusion that she wants to have my child. *sigh* if only i was zorro.....

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:40:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to at_leo_87)

lol whenever i see zorro i think E and F with generic supper loud super clear scales in between....

btw...this is the zorro i grew up with ...the music is so grouvy...imagine disco version of "Zorros back !! zorros back!!...Sha la la la LA LA LA ZOrros back!!..thats my phone ring btw...and zorro had flairs

heres the song that i got as my phone ring

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:43:24

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

i'm resisting the temptation to post a charo video here..... ugh...so hard!

wow, zorro is so bad ass. i'm convinced. next costume party, i'm going to be zorro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 17:49:55

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Making a living out of Music (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Well theres a difference between someone who just wants to small talk with you, be friendly etc and someone who is seriously going to be a musician. I dont think Reinhardt wanted to small talk.
Sure you can ignore ignorance of flamenco in conversations anytime, you seem to have build up an enormously thick skin :). But try to see it this way: if everybody would be honest to their art and audience, you would never even have to "conversate" about this stuff.

OF COURSE we are snobs, from the standpoint of someone who practices 8 hours Rodrigo y Gabriela and considers John Clarke as good artist because he makes music many people like (YouTube hits

^^). If Reinhardt does not have the right to think of us as snobs, then nobody has