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nothing serious, just some thoughts
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michel
Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france
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 RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Ricardo)
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interesting thoughts Ricardo, it's really a matter of individual taste.
I considered myself as an Old School-Fan, well but i really also like the modern generation of players, so what makes the difference? why do i prefer old school?
for my taste old school recordings have more "solo"-feeling, and that is what i like so much, the old rough solo sound due to historic mics, no reverb, no palmas or cajon and bands behind, this made the real diffence for me, much more than the thing about modern or old falsetas. it would be surprising to hear vicente amigo unaccompanied, recorded with the same mic than sabicas and without reverb.
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Date Nov. 26 2009 6:11:44
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Doitsujin)
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quote:
A lot of Pacos compositions especially the older ones are covers of other players compositions or even almost 1:1 copies of other music genres.
Doit, by "covers" do you mean things like impetu, panaderos, mantilla de feria?
and by "1:1 copies of other genres" do you mean things like things like czardas de monti, lecuona's pieces and/or or the hispano/latina albums with ramon?
only i'm thinking that apart from those 2 hispano/latina albums with ramonthere aren't really a lot of covers and copies on his early solo albums, 1 on first album, 2 on second, quite a few on 3rd but none on 4th....
maybe you mean he lifted falsetas from older players but put them into his own pieces? would be cool to know which ones, which tracks etc. as i'm not too expert on the older players' stuff but would like to check those things out if that's the case.
quote:
I think Paco played "straight" what a lot of the older performers "covered up" (by using ligado and altering the half-beats to make it fit, etc..)
ron, can you explain this? i don't understand....
quote:
I think nobody believed it was possible to play that stuff "straight and honestly" and were thus amazed....this was just stuff they just had in their heads, but impossible to play
do you mean he took an older passage of music or falseta that an older player had played say with pulgar and ligados and played every note pulgar? have you got any specific references? only that would be interesting to hear back to back!
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Date Nov. 27 2009 0:55:22
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to mark indigo)
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Sure, Mark..
What I mean by straight, is that early Paco never did what a lot of players did, by
making a falseta more playable by the odd pulloff, or altering the phrasing slightly.
My impression is that he always went straight for it, whether it involved fast and awkward repetetive thumb notes or awkward string crossings in picado.
So his work always sounds remarkably clear, clean and uncluttered.
A lot of Paco's early falsetas were very "generic" and not really particularly "clever" or musically complex.
"Jerezana" for instance is very "generic bulerias" IMO.
In fact really anything from that early period has very simple and clear, non-complicated musical ideas and progressions (compared to say Sabicas, who could get quite "muddy" in sound sometimes.)
It's just that he plays them so cleanly, with regard to technical execution and rhythm that makes them so memorable, stunning and very difficult to copy.
Paco just plays what others only hear in their head, but have to modify to suit their technique, thus destroying the simplicity.
quote:
do you mean he took an older passage of music or falseta that an older player had played say with pulgar and ligados and played every note pulgar? have you got any specific references? only that would be interesting to hear back to back!
Of course I don't mean that he took a particular player's falseta note for note and cleaned it up.
You can't call a simple 4 chord phrygian sequence from Dm to A or Am to E "somebody's falseta".
As an experiment, try making up a nice geometrical sequence yourself.
You might come up with a nice and interesting run on the first chord, but try repeating the same idea all the way through to the last chord and invariably you will come across an awkward string crossing that makes life difficult and you've either got to 'cheat', or add in a half-note as a run-in or something to make it more playable.
I don't have any musical training, so I can't express it any better.
That's my gut feeling anyway....not a learned work of research or anything.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Nov. 27 2009 4:01:48
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Stu)
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Excuse me – you don't think that "Sabicas had technique anywhere near Paco's" ?
Anyone who could possibly make a statement like that doesn't know much about technique. Paco's picado is faster than Sabicas' was, though how much that matters I will discuss in another post. But there is something about Sabicas' technique that has never been equaled, and will probably never be equaled – not by Paco or anyone else. And that is the extraordinary fullness of his tone in whatever of the various techniques that are employed in flamenco guitar – tremolo, arpeggios, picado. Every single note that ensued from Sabicas was incredibly full, rich, and rounded, no matter what he played, and no matter how fast he played it. Nobody can match his tremolo – every note not only full, but with clear and distinct separation of each and every note. Same for his arpeggios and picado. And when it comes to picado, as I said, Paco's is faster, but – the tone is thinner, lighter. In fact, the same is true for Paco's tremolo and arpeggios. They are fast, clean, etc. But they simply don't have the body and fullness that Sabicas' had. But of course, neither does any other guitarist.
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Date Nov. 27 2009 7:38:17
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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For me, dynamics, rhythm and cleanness wins anytime over "rich and round" tones. And usually, players who have the first 3 attributes also have a good tone, IMO, at least in a flamenco way of meaning. But you are right, there is a trade off between tone and speed, at a given technique.
Having said that, i don't think Paco's tone is thin in any way, and i prefer his tone over Sabicas'. Depending on the recording/performance i can also prefer other guitarists tone to Paco's, but to compare the techniques you have to equal out the differences in recording and material that is played. And in summary i think Paco was one step ahead in every technique.
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Фламенко
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Date Nov. 27 2009 9:06:18
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron, I think i understand what you are saying about playing straight etc., i was just confused by the context of talking about paco copying or covering other people's stuff...
quote:
Excuse me – you don't think that "Sabicas had technique anywhere near Paco's" ?
honestly, i think that comparing Paco and Sabicas is like comparing, oh, i don't know, the shadows to radiohead, or mozart to debussy, i mean, they live in different times, the world is a different place and they are just so different...
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Date Nov. 27 2009 10:26:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (in reply to Stu)
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Two things are quite clear to me. First, paco copies TONS of melodies and ideas from other sources, often note for note, and admits to flat out STEALING melodies to be used in his own compostions. The examples are far too numerous to mention.
Secondly, it is quite clear the inspiration for N. Miguels style of playing is no one other than Paco de lucia, from the epoc of about 1972 (Duende flamenco, with some orquestra backing) to about 1975 or 6. From this period and style he draws his inspiration, and never evolved out of it, yet Paco sure did. Don't believe chit chat on youtube comments. example Entre dos aguas has lots of improvised falsetas, yet N. Miguel plays more or less note for note the one recorded version from 73, mixed with Paco's other improvised rumba from 71. And folks claim it was ALL composed by N. Miguel....why would Paco change it every other time he ever played it??? 
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 2 2009 11:45:36
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