nothing serious, just some thoughts (Full Version)

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Stu -> nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 24 2009 9:44:24)

I think it was safe to assume that any student of the flamenco guitar will probably play some of the music of their idols....ie I play some of Pacos tunes,

So then I guess its safe to assume that Paco will have played some of sabicas's Pieces when he was learning? (or just for fun) and Vicente has learnt and played some of his favourite paco pieces...

But do you think guitarists of the older generation attempt to play any of the younger guys stuff? ie Does paco play chicuelo stuf etc???

Just a thought??



XXX -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 24 2009 10:05:57)

Im sure Paco tries out things by other guitarists. Why not? I am sure there is stuff that inspires him. Dont know if its Chicuelo. Maybe Vicente Amigo? What i would really like to see is Paco Cepero playing Vicente Amigo!



marrow3 -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 24 2009 12:49:51)

I don't know for sure one way or the other but,
he's not going to learn note for note because he can almost certain do an interpretation straight off. If does that then he has be careful not to incorporate and "steal" their ideas. And lastly if he appreciates or is inspired another guitarist he can almost certainly get them to play in his group or to play a duet or something, isn't that the way they do it?

cheers
Richard



Ricardo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 25 2009 5:40:09)

Moraito learned and recorded his son diegos falsetas.

I say it has to do with the mentality of the players. I know some older guitarists who would flat at refuse to learn a modern falseta. I know one guy who is maybe in 60's that plays anything from Ramon Montoya, Diego del Gastor, Morao or parrilla up to paco, vicente etc. And I know one older guy maybe late 60's, that only plays his own falseta, but they sound modern and crazy like Viejin or something. LOL.

So it just depends on the personality and taste of the individual. Not the age. There are young players out there that only like Old flamenco I am sure. Look at Javier Conde who plays Sabicas and Old paco mainly. I personally love old stuff a lot and learn it....but also like modern stuff.

Ricardo



michel -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 26 2009 6:11:44)

interesting thoughts Ricardo, it's really a matter of individual taste.
I considered myself as an Old School-Fan, well but i really also like the modern generation of players, so what makes the difference? why do i prefer old school?
for my taste old school recordings have more "solo"-feeling, and that is what i like so much, the old rough solo sound due to historic mics, no reverb, no palmas or cajon and bands behind, this made the real diffence for me, much more than the thing about modern or old falsetas. it would be surprising to hear vicente amigo unaccompanied, recorded with the same mic than sabicas and without reverb.



Doitsujin -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 26 2009 10:27:15)

quote:

Does paco play chicuelo stuf etc???


A lot of Pacos compositions especially the older ones are covers of other players compositions or even almost 1:1 copies of other music genres.



Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 26 2009 10:55:08)

quote:

A lot of Pacos compositions especially the older ones are covers of other players compositions


I'd agree there, Doit.

I think Paco played "straight" what a lot of the older performers "covered up" (by using ligado and altering the half-beats to make it fit, etc..)

I think nobody believed it was possible to play that stuff "straight and honestly" and were thus amazed....this was just stuff they just had in their heads, but impossible to play.

Combined with the ultra-fast picado, the guy was obviously a trend-setter and made for life.

cheers,

Ron



marrow3 -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 26 2009 12:53:02)

normally when you're young <25 you cut your teeth on established material and it's then you take most risks and create your style and interpretations. Older folk take lesser risks usually having more responsibilities. That process doesn't work for an older person taking on a younger person's material and so then it doesn't depend on taste.



John O. -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 26 2009 15:24:42)

I think innovative players like Paco, Sanlucar, and Gerardo Nunez will always be open to new ideas no matter how old they get.

And it was Paco who said a genius takes ideas from others and calls them his own, something like that. I hear so many picado and tremolo elements from Sabicas it Pacos older recordings...



mark indigo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 0:55:22)

quote:

A lot of Pacos compositions especially the older ones are covers of other players compositions or even almost 1:1 copies of other music genres.


Doit, by "covers" do you mean things like impetu, panaderos, mantilla de feria?
and by "1:1 copies of other genres" do you mean things like things like czardas de monti, lecuona's pieces and/or or the hispano/latina albums with ramon?

only i'm thinking that apart from those 2 hispano/latina albums with ramonthere aren't really a lot of covers and copies on his early solo albums, 1 on first album, 2 on second, quite a few on 3rd but none on 4th....

maybe you mean he lifted falsetas from older players but put them into his own pieces? would be cool to know which ones, which tracks etc. as i'm not too expert on the older players' stuff but would like to check those things out if that's the case.



quote:

I think Paco played "straight" what a lot of the older performers "covered up" (by using ligado and altering the half-beats to make it fit, etc..)


ron, can you explain this? i don't understand....

quote:

I think nobody believed it was possible to play that stuff "straight and honestly" and were thus amazed....this was just stuff they just had in their heads, but impossible to play


do you mean he took an older passage of music or falseta that an older player had played say with pulgar and ligados and played every note pulgar? have you got any specific references? only that would be interesting to hear back to back!



Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 4:01:48)

Sure, Mark..

What I mean by straight, is that early Paco never did what a lot of players did, by
making a falseta more playable by the odd pulloff, or altering the phrasing slightly.
My impression is that he always went straight for it, whether it involved fast and awkward repetetive thumb notes or awkward string crossings in picado.

So his work always sounds remarkably clear, clean and uncluttered.

A lot of Paco's early falsetas were very "generic" and not really particularly "clever" or musically complex.
"Jerezana" for instance is very "generic bulerias" IMO.

In fact really anything from that early period has very simple and clear, non-complicated musical ideas and progressions (compared to say Sabicas, who could get quite "muddy" in sound sometimes.)

It's just that he plays them so cleanly, with regard to technical execution and rhythm that makes them so memorable, stunning and very difficult to copy.

Paco just plays what others only hear in their head, but have to modify to suit their technique, thus destroying the simplicity.

quote:

do you mean he took an older passage of music or falseta that an older player had played say with pulgar and ligados and played every note pulgar? have you got any specific references? only that would be interesting to hear back to back!


Of course I don't mean that he took a particular player's falseta note for note and cleaned it up.
You can't call a simple 4 chord phrygian sequence from Dm to A or Am to E "somebody's falseta".
As an experiment, try making up a nice geometrical sequence yourself.
You might come up with a nice and interesting run on the first chord, but try repeating the same idea all the way through to the last chord and invariably you will come across an awkward string crossing that makes life difficult and you've either got to 'cheat', or add in a half-note as a run-in or something to make it more playable.

I don't have any musical training, so I can't express it any better.



That's my gut feeling anyway....not a learned work of research or anything.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 4:43:44)

I think i know what Ron means. But in the end it simply boils down to his technique to play the stuff more staccato and straightforward than others of his time (then). Sabicas, Ricardo had also good technique, but i doubt anywhere near Paco's.



Ramon Amira -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 7:38:17)

Excuse me – you don't think that "Sabicas had technique anywhere near Paco's" ?

Anyone who could possibly make a statement like that doesn't know much about technique. Paco's picado is faster than Sabicas' was, though how much that matters I will discuss in another post. But there is something about Sabicas' technique that has never been equaled, and will probably never be equaled – not by Paco or anyone else. And that is the extraordinary fullness of his tone in whatever of the various techniques that are employed in flamenco guitar – tremolo, arpeggios, picado. Every single note that ensued from Sabicas was incredibly full, rich, and rounded, no matter what he played, and no matter how fast he played it. Nobody can match his tremolo – every note not only full, but with clear and distinct separation of each and every note. Same for his arpeggios and picado. And when it comes to picado, as I said, Paco's is faster, but – the tone is thinner, lighter. In fact, the same is true for Paco's tremolo and arpeggios. They are fast, clean, etc. But they simply don't have the body and fullness that Sabicas' had. But of course, neither does any other guitarist.



aeolus -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 8:32:09)

Have you heard this? Paco's performance is superior to any classical guitarist I have heard and his tone and articulation can't be faulted. IMO







XXX -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 9:06:18)

For me, dynamics, rhythm and cleanness wins anytime over "rich and round" tones. And usually, players who have the first 3 attributes also have a good tone, IMO, at least in a flamenco way of meaning. But you are right, there is a trade off between tone and speed, at a given technique.
Having said that, i don't think Paco's tone is thin in any way, and i prefer his tone over Sabicas'. Depending on the recording/performance i can also prefer other guitarists tone to Paco's, but to compare the techniques you have to equal out the differences in recording and material that is played. And in summary i think Paco was one step ahead in every technique.



mark indigo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 10:26:28)

Ron, I think i understand what you are saying about playing straight etc., i was just confused by the context of talking about paco copying or covering other people's stuff...

quote:

Excuse me – you don't think that "Sabicas had technique anywhere near Paco's" ?


honestly, i think that comparing Paco and Sabicas is like comparing, oh, i don't know, the shadows to radiohead, or mozart to debussy, i mean, they live in different times, the world is a different place and they are just so different...



Estevan -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 10:39:06)

Oh great, this thread is going off the rails towards Dr. Prof. Diaz territory.
Popcorn, anyone?[8D]



Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 10:45:13)

All this is just "personal preference" stuff.

Sabicas was a SUPERB Flamenco guitarist, as is Paco de Lucia.

Two different approaches to the same thing.

The comparison is stupid and meaningless IMO.

cheers,

Ron



Ramon Amira -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 12:41:31)

Well I wasn't the one making a comparison, I was just responding to an assertion that "Sabicas didn't have near the technique of Paco de Lucia." In the end it really doesn't matter much – neither one of them plays flamenco any more.



Ricardo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 14:44:28)

quote:

In the end it really doesn't matter much – neither one of them plays flamenco any more.


[&:][8|]

Sabicas had some darn tricky licks. Paco was a bit more controlled and solid, but probably would not have evolved his playing that way just copying N. Ricardo, who was quite dirty. Sabicas inspired paco to be a clean player IMO. But there were other clean players before PDL. Esteban de Sanlucar was prestine, Manolo de Huelva had some sharp staccato picado, and paco Cepero had a vicious techique and rhythm all around.

Anyway, after all is said and done I am afraid both Sabicas, AND Paco, and many other solo flamenco guitarists, were guilty of having their mastered records sped up a notch or two.

Ricardo



Ramon Amira -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Nov. 27 2009 16:27:12)

Yesiree, Paco Cepero could whip off a mean picado, and Manolo de Huelva too. The funny part about Manolo on records was that sometimes he had no choice but to really rip. He recorded – what little he did – in the era of 78 RPM records. The problem with those was that they had something like a three minute time limit. Now the cantaor was not about to speed up the cante to make it fit, so if the guitarist wanted to get in a couple of licks, he had to be quick about it. You hear that all the time on these old 78s.



Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 1 2009 4:17:02)

quote:

A lot of Paco's early falsetas were very "generic" and not really particularly "clever" or musically complex.
"Jerezana" for instance is very "generic bulerias" IMO.


Now that Jason has given me an idea how to write down those "weird" chords,
I would like to mention the following..

There IS a sequence that Paco uses in a lot of his early Bulerias (after Jerezana), which I must admit, I'd never heard played by anyone before...

(Bb= B flat)

Dm
G7
C
Bb7
Bb7/Ab in bass
A (resolving chord)

This sequence is SO distictively Paco's that anytime you hear anyone play it, you think "Paco".

Also El Camaron de la Isla sings a sequence in the Bulerias "Son tus ojos dos estrellas"...

(after the Dm change)

G7
C7
F7
Bb
Bb/G (in bass) or /Ab (in bass)
A (resolving chord)

I can't remember hearing anyone singing this progression in a Bulerias before..
Again, SO distinctive, that you immediately think "Camaron".
Both progressions seem very related in feel and in fact used in the same piece... so it makes me wonder...

Did Paco influence Camaron....or did Camaron influence Paco....or did they come up with the idea together?

Or can anyone post an example of an earlier player or singer doing this sequence?

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 1 2009 5:56:07)

That is just the normal Circle of 5ths chord progression, from which all tonal music is derived since the Baroque era. Disguised in the middle of the V-I chord moves, is the Andalusian Cadence.

Dm (D7 could happen, then Gm and/or G7)
C (or C7, then Fmajor, or F7) then
Bb(then Em7b5, but that is weak, since we want to resolve strong to A, so Bb7 is a better sub....Bb7/Ab even better cuz of the leading tone G#)
Amajor.

I will try to find something really old school that uses specifically the G7 to C in a progression. Anyway the cante makes use of such progressions often as well. It is simply the fundamental "progression" that can occur in a single key. Music of Bach in the key of Dm will use the same progressions quite often.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 1 2009 11:36:30)

I appreciate what your're saying there Ricardo...but I still feel it's a bit like saying that Jerry Lee Lewis only had the same 12 notes to play as J.S. Bach.

I was meaning more like, the "presentation" or "phrasing" of that sequence, rather than the availability of those chords to anyone.

cheers,

Ron



Wannabee -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 1 2009 20:06:42)

So did Paco "borrow" from El nino Miguel?




There's some people posting on youtube saying ...well, I don't know.

Scroll down and read the comments.





Some falsettas from this do sound very similar to Aires Choqueros;




Ron.M -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 2 2009 1:34:14)

These are great tracks, Wannabee!

quote:

So did Paco "borrow" from El nino Miguel?


Hmm...Paco must certainly been aware of Niño Miguel, but without recorded evidence it's just speculation and gossip IMO.

I checked the dates on my LP's and Fantasia Flamenca came out in 1969.
Paco was born Dec 1947, so that would make him 21 or 22 at the time he recorded it.
Niño Miguel was born 1952, so that would make him about 17 when the album came out.
"El Tempul" has a falseta which hints at this progression.

The "El Camaron de la Isla con la colaboracion de Paco de Lucia" LP which features "Son tus ojos dos estrellas" came out in 1971.
So Camaron would have been 20 to 21, being born Dec 1950

So unless we can hear an officially dated recording prior to this, everything is just speculation, especially since Paco continued developing new ideas over the following decades.

That's my view anyway..

cheers,

Ron



mark indigo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 2 2009 3:38:29)

quote:

So did Paco "borrow" from El nino Miguel?


Paco released Almoraíma in '76, and Niño MIguel's 2 lp's were released in '75 and '76 - if Niño Miguel had come up with that stuff you would think he would have recorded it on one of those lp's before Paco had the chance, and i can't imagine Paco would have lifted stuff straight from anyone else without substantially re-working it...

Aires Choqueros and Brisas de Huelva are similar enough to have been inspired by the same influences but different enough to not be one taking from the other, and if anything, as Paco's Fuente Y Caudal (lp with Aires Choqueros on it) was released in '73 and Niño Miguel's not 'til '75, based purely on the recorded evidence it would look like if there's any "borrowing" it would be Niño Miguel borrowing from Paco, which based on listening to the tracks i don't think is the case...



Andy Culpepper -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 2 2009 5:51:15)

If Paco was heavily influenced by any of his contemporaries it was probably his older brother Ramón.



XXX -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 2 2009 7:11:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
The comparison is stupid and meaningless IMO.


It seems i forgot to answer. IMO you can compare techniques, or the execution of those pretty easily. If you cross out the differences in style and taste. For me, the classic Paco and Sabicas are one style. Jerezana could be a Sabicas piece. A different thing is "tone", or timbre, as this is purely a matter of taste imo (as long as the tone is not caused by a lack of technique, which i think, we can exclude, in PDLs case).

I cant see the reason why El Nino Miguel becomes a topic here. Nobody mentioned him? I regret that every now and then the question is repeatedly raised on this site, that Paco could have borrowed from him.



Ricardo -> RE: nothing serious, just some thoughts (Dec. 2 2009 11:45:36)

Two things are quite clear to me. First, paco copies TONS of melodies and ideas from other sources, often note for note, and admits to flat out STEALING melodies to be used in his own compostions. The examples are far too numerous to mention.

Secondly, it is quite clear the inspiration for N. Miguels style of playing is no one other than Paco de lucia, from the epoc of about 1972 (Duende flamenco, with some orquestra backing) to about 1975 or 6. From this period and style he draws his inspiration, and never evolved out of it, yet Paco sure did. Don't believe chit chat on youtube comments. example Entre dos aguas has lots of improvised falsetas, yet N. Miguel plays more or less note for note the one recorded version from 73, mixed with Paco's other improvised rumba from 71. And folks claim it was ALL composed by N. Miguel....why would Paco change it every other time he ever played it??? [8|]

Ricardo



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