My darm shoulder...

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My darm shoulder...

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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

My darm shoulder...

...I had no idea how much I use my right shoulder muscle for guitar playing!

Since I'm sitting with a guitar the whole day now I started exercising to compensate for my bad back - besides having lost 30 pounds I get horrible cramps if I don't move a bit regularly.

So a couple of months ago on the pull-up machine the knee-rest suddenly fell leaving me hanging with my right arm and ripped the muscle - hurt really bad. That has been months ago and it simply will not heal - because of my guitar playing, especially the rasgueados. The more I play, the more it will hurt the next day.

Anybody have an idea? I'm not exercising now and the next back cramp isn't far off...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 8:02:40

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

Damn, John, that doesn't sound good!

You might want to let those muscles heal completely without any stress or strain for a couple of weeks. I'm no expert, but it's what I've always heard doctors recommend when somebody twists or sprains something like that. I don't like being the voice of gloom and doom, but it sounds like something that has all the potential to give you a lot of problems later on if not properly cared for now, so if you can't stop playing you might want to at least check with a doctor. My advice is to take it seriously and not expect it to just go away without taking rest. Hope you recover soon!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 22:19:15

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to NormanKliman)

I was afraid I'd hear something like that

Actually I remember about a month ago it was waking me up at night and shifting into 5th gear driving was nearly unbareable - now it's just very annoying. I think ligament injuries just take a very long time to heal. Still I will see a doctor about it. I'm not really in a position anymore to stop playing for two weeks - at least until Christmas time...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 3:19:23

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

along with what norman said, i'd also check my posture. that's very important. and watch that shoulder when you play.

search for some shoulder stretches. i bet that would help too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 10:05:41

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

I had no idea how much I use my right shoulder muscle for guitar playing!

sorry to hear about your injury

um.... i don't think you should be using muscles in your shoulder to play guitar.... at least not to operate any of the finger movements.... holding your arm in the playing position maybe, but once the arm is resting on the side of the guitar, all the flexor and extensor muscles which flex and extend the fingers (and the ones that pronate and supinate (rotate) the wrist) are all in the lower arm, the forearm, below the elbow, so you shouldn't be using any muscles in the shoulder to actually play....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 12:03:09

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

Well... you are becoming older...

Maybe your upper body is too tall for the guitar... Because I had the same problem, Im doing muscle training since 1,5 years now and have no pain at all left.

I hope you find a solution..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 12:59:35

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

once the arm is resting on the side of the guitar

Yeah, that's what I thought too! But like you wrote, holding your arm in the playing position - with the tresillo strumming p-i-p I feel it tensing up and with thumb technique - I don't anchor when playing with the thumb. When playing these techniques I tend to pull my arm up very slightly so I can rotate my wrist more freely.

I also think things just tense up in a muscle chain, sometimes when it's not necessary. People always laugh when I pull the toes of my right foot back as far as they can go while playing.

Thanks for the kind reminder about my age, Doit...

You're right about the back, and up to now I've had the same success as you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 14:59:24

flybynight

Posts: 121
Joined: Aug. 14 2009

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

Also, make sure that the problem is *only* muscular - which will heal in time / via your own exercises, or might be structural - your back vertebrae out of alignment, which might need either an osteopath or chiropractor to fix.

I've got structural problems - poor posture due to playing and guitar work, so I've got a chiropractor working on correcting that over a period of a year. And after just a week's intensive treatment, I'm making great progress.

From experience, osteopaths are great for popping back simple structural problems, but chiropractors are great for the overall posture and vertebrae re-aligment. Suggest visiting of these types of practitioners if you suspect something other than muscular problems.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 5:27:53

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to flybynight)

I did think about that but have heard often that popping back should be a last resort. Glad to hear you're making progress.

I think actually the weight training was helping the shoulder problem I have now: a slight sore pain where biceps, triceps and shoulder meet, on the injured side much stronger than on the other, and has become more noticable since I stopped the weight training.

I've had back problems all my life, the exercize took care of that in a hurry. I'm itching to get back to it since I'm slouching again, don't want to hurt more than help though...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 5:40:45

Djreisat

Posts: 28
Joined: Sep. 21 2009
From: Wilmington, NC

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

John,
It seems you and I are having the same issue. As an avid weight lifter and flamenco guitarist I began noticing shoulder pains. I stopped lifting for a few weeks but that did not help as I would be holding my guitar roughly 6 hours a day. It has helped me to change my posture from PDL style to resting the guitar on my left thigh because the arm rests a bit lower and helps relieve some of the stress on it. Also, my cousin is a chiropractor/acupuncturist who I am seeing tomorrow; he is going to set it and use acupuncture to fix it. I'll let you know it goes and if it works I'll jot down any useful information. However, some of it may be irrelevant because most of the pain I am having is, like you said, where the biceps, triceps, and shoulder meet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 7:15:35

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

I don't anchor when playing with the thumb.

Whoa, stop right there!

You might want to have a look at that. In the same sentence you mention strumming, but it looks like you're also referring to general use of the thumb. I think anchoring would help to get part of the job done, through the use of the muscles that draw the thumb into the palm, and would take some of the load off of the muscles further up the arm and into the back. I usually anchor with middle and ring, although most players seem to use index for anchoring. I rest middle and ring against the side of the first string for alzapúa and/or on the soundboard for other thumb techniques. Even if the finger raises up from its anchor between thumbstrokes (which is probably inefficient), there's still that precise moment of contact where you can use a simple clasping movement to pull your thumb across the string, instead of pushing it with your upper arm, shoulders and/or back.

Also, if you really want to get back into weight training, you might want to focus on small weights in lots of reps instead of hefting a heavy load.

Hope that helps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 7:39:21

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to NormanKliman)

Okay, so I really had to do some playing to see if I anchor

My practice is all without anchor, but actually to get the thumb going I give a slight push against the first string, sound board or use the help of a golpe. Once my wrist gets going I do take the achor away though. Maybe I should try practicing with an anchor.

The pull-up/dip machine was the first machine I tried to lift my own weight with - so where you mention heavy loads, there you have it

Djreisat, thank's for letting me know that! That means I don't necessarily need a doctor - sounds common.

Pull ups and dips have a lot of strain on those shoulder muscles and that's when it started, so I guess I'll keep away from that from now on...

Thanks everyone!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 9:26:51

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to flybynight)

quote:

From experience, osteopaths are great for popping back simple structural problems, but chiropractors are great for the overall posture and vertebrae re-aligment.

i second that.

and for these problems;

quote:

things just tense up in a muscle chain, sometimes when it's not necessary.

IMO they don't "just tense up", you tense them up... there is no such thing as an "immaculate contraction" ie. muscles don't just tense up by themselves, it's their owners who are doing the tensing, which is actually really good news, 'cos it means you can learn to stop tensing them - try Alexander Technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 10:02:05

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

actually in order to really play guitar without hurting yourself you should be using your shoulder.

this i found out after destroying my ligaments in my hands after an accident and years of tendonitis lol. turns out using large muscle groups is better for you and better for your playing.

maybe you should look into giving yourself two weeks off and then starting with some really simple exercises with some very light weights.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 10:34:57

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Uh oh

Shoulder or no shoulder?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 10:57:41

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Uh oh

Shoulder or no shoulder?

don't take my word for it, check the anatomy, which muscles move across which joints to work which limbs/appendages etc.

also take care with the wording below;

i think you will find there are no muscles in the shoulder region which flex or extend the fingers, and that the relevant muscles are located in the lower arm below the elbow.

but that doesn't mean that muscles in the shoulder region won't be used to move the move and place the arm over/on the guitar in order to bring the hand into place so the fingers can play the strings.

this is going to be important when moving from, say, pulgar/alzapua position to basic rasgeo position to picado position, and when moving across the strings playing picado/scales, even though they don't actually make the movements of the fingers/thumb.

also i think pronation and supination of the forearm (rotation of the wrist used in rasgeo abanico and alzapua) does involve muscles which cross the elbow into the upper arm, i will check this, but i still don't think any in the shoulder region are used for this movement!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 23:16:24

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

You move your leg, the shoulder-muscles are involved, just as your back always participates in any movement your body makes (i. e. not just resting or posture). Your raise your lower arm or pronate it, your shoulder's involved. You turn your head to look at your fretting-hand: yep, your shoulder's involved.
It's a common error to think in terms of single muscle function. It is nigh impossible to use just any one single muscle.
So you can't play without using your various shoulder muscles.

John, can you raise your arm above the vertical (to the front and to the side)?
Can you put your right hand in your left rear trouser pocket?
If you can't or if that's painful you want to see an orthopedic surgeon real soon!
Do an internet search for "rotator cuff"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2009 8:10:23

Djreisat

Posts: 28
Joined: Sep. 21 2009
From: Wilmington, NC

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

John this is what my doctor/cousin did for me, he gave me a TENS unit (transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator) and placed it around the delta muscle in the shoulder, it runs for thirty minutes and fatigues the muscle therefore relieving stress and pain. It does this by sending an electrical current through the muscle causing it to contract. He told me they cost about sixty to eighty dollars american. It worked great the pain is gone, currently, I was told to use it daily for about a week and it should heal it. My pain was caused by stress due to over usage i.e. guitar, lifting, and work, since I am only twenty four I was worried, but it is an easy fix.
All the best

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2009 17:39:19

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

...I had no idea how much I use my right shoulder muscle for guitar playing!

Since I'm sitting with a guitar the whole day now I started exercising to compensate for my bad back - besides having lost 30 pounds I get horrible cramps if I don't move a bit regularly.

So a couple of months ago on the pull-up machine the knee-rest suddenly fell leaving me hanging with my right arm and ripped the muscle - hurt really bad. That has been months ago and it simply will not heal - because of my guitar playing, especially the rasgueados. The more I play, the more it will hurt the next day.

Anybody have an idea? I'm not exercising now and the next back cramp isn't far off...

I remember seeing one of your vids once and it stuck in my mind because you didn't rest the upper arm on the top of the guitar when using the thumb. At the time neither did I and it bothered me because just about everyone else had the arm resting. Since then I've changed to this "correct" position. It required a bit of perseverance but was well worth the effort.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2009 18:20:39

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to John O.)

the only time i experience tension in my right shoulder is when i play something left hand intensive without a capo on...my left hand requires quite a bit of strength to play the notes cleanly and to achieve that i need my guitar to be stable on my lap and what i do then is i push the guitar bit harder than normal using my right forearm - this doesn't affect my right hand playing but it definitely brings a lot of tension to the shoulder...
so i recommend not playing without a capo when there's much going on in first position...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2009 8:25:37

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: My darm shoulder... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Just after two days going from 4 to 2 hours practice a day it went away, so I'm assuming it's only a strain, simply from holding my arms up and tensing the muscles for so long. Since it started a month after my break from the weightlifting it must have been the weights strengthening my back and shoulders that actually helped. I'm using light weights again now and not having any problems, so I'm sure I'll be fine.

Hamia that's interesting, I'll have to look at that. I do have extremely long arms and big hands though and mostly use the side of my thumb nail. Resting the way most people do and playing like that would have my thumb almost over the fretboard. That is probably part of the problem, though.

Thanks everyone for the tips!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2009 1:48:49