accompanying dancers question

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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

accompanying dancers question

hope you guys can help me out here.

so for bulerias, when a dancer does something in threes (accents on 12-3-6-9) what can i play on guitar when the straight forward 12-2-6-8-10 compas doesn't work?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2009 18:18:51

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

There are some basic patterns in threes, and in twos, but I don't think it matters. I'm not sure in what sense it 'doesn't work'.

The guitarist doesn't always have to mirror exactly the same rhythm as the dancer. In fact that's sort of the point - that the dancer is doing a different rhythm which contrasts with the base that the guitar is providing. It sort of emphasises it more.

Well just my experience as a dancer. Experienced accompanists may have a different view.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2009 22:39:18

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

i didn't get a chance to play yet but i heard the class guitarist play. the teacher was doing something in threes and he was just playing 12-3-6-8-10 and it sounded so off, he had to stop.

she did something in 2's too that sounded really cool. my head was about to explode from too much sensory input.

i'll bring in my guitar next week and see what i can do. thanks ailsa!

also, are they any rules or tips i should follow when it comes to learning from the class guitarist? he's about the same level as me. is it too much to have two guitars? am i invading his territory? should i stand on my hind legs and pound my chest and roar or try to find another class?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2009 23:29:16

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

i most of the time follow the rhythm of the dancer, for the same reason you mentioned, it sometimes sounds off if you don't...just think in 6s and change the chords on 3 6 9 12 - i usually think of bulerías like this: 3-3-3-3 3-3-2-2-2

guitarists can be territorial, but it really depends on the guy's personality, you should just ask him if it's not a problem if you join...all the guitarists i know like to play alone, probably i'm the only one who likes another guitarist beside me but i hate it when he doesn't follow what i want to play :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 0:04:56

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

playing 12-3-6-8-10 and it sounded so off, he had to stop.

hmm i havent counted in a long time so i finding it harder to imagine this but my guess is that someone might have gotten put off or esitated etc.. the compas should have still worked...or atleast if not all the guitarist would have to do is change the accent for the 3 with the accent on the 2

or the teacher was doing a llamada wich starts on 1 and what you thought was 2 was infact the 3...so then it would be 123 456 78910..

but like i said i havent counted in a long time this is really doing my brain in lol
if i had a sound i would be able to be more helpfull

quote:

also, are they any rules or tips i should follow when it comes to learning from the class guitarist? he's about the same level as me. is it too much to have two guitars? am i invading his territory? should i stand on my hind legs and pound my chest and roar or try to find another class

Yes theres an unwritten rule...if you go to the class he gets paid or asked to play for you follow him...but i acctually think he would be happy to have you there...sitting there by yourself can be boring...you can do anything you want but do it the nice way...like in the pause say " hey can we try this ?"...you dont just surprise him with it....instead of it beeing a banging of the heads trying to get yourselfs heard over eachother wich never sounds right or will fustrate both of you ..it can be something fun u do and workout togheder

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 1:16:15

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

For the first time i would just follow what he plays. I wouldn't ask him to try out some things of yours... even if he is a worse player than you. If he is playing something wrong then this is a different matter of course. In this case just tell him his playing sucks

Let us know how it is going. It must be fun with two guitars. Its very boring when the level of dance is low. I would have appreciated it if there was a guitarrist to work with. You simply have more possibilities.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 1:46:09

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

also, are they any rules or tips i should follow when it comes to learning from the class guitarist? he's about the same level as me. is it too much to have two guitars? am i invading his territory? should i stand on my hind legs and pound my chest and roar or try to find another class?

this is potentially tricky.... if he is way better than you, paid, and amplified, it's fairly simple, you just humbly sit in (unamplified), play along, and learn what you can. i have learnt a lot from the generosity of a number of guitarists this way over the years, some of them have even given me mini free lessons in the middle of the class (which does annoy the teacher sometimes

).

when the guitarist is same level as you, or worse, it's tricky, but he's getting paid for the gig, so maybe you should respect that it's his gig....?

i would say just play along with everything he does, and learn the dances in your head, and the accompaniments, and then if and where you think it fits you can play over what he's doing in a way that will complement and not distract the dancer/s

what do other people think about this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 2:19:00

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

he's about the same level as me. is it too much to have two guitars? am i invading his territory?

I didt read the other answers but this is my input.

Play what the other guy plays. If its to hard try nailing the chord changes on 3 and 10
if thats where they are like in Alegria,soléa or Buleria etc..

2 guitarists playing diffrent stuff doesnt make a good rythm machine

I called a guitarst once and asked if i could sit in a few times
and he told me it was ok but to wait about 2 weeks or so untill he had figured out what he was going to play. And that makes a lot of sence.

2 guitarists playing diffrent stuff wont make it easy for the students wh actually payed for the class.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 2:26:43

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

the player said it's okay but i was wondering if he was just being polite. he's much more advanced than me at solo stuff but with accompanying dancers, i think we're about the same level.

xirdneh, so it's okay to change chords on 9? i was thinking of doing that but was afraid i was breaking some sort of rule.

florian, it's hard to explain but i remember she was staying in one place doing sort of a galloping rhythm over and over in three's. i think you're right. they both seemed a bit hesitant. and maybe that's why it sounded off.

deniz, im afraid i'll sound like an egghead or arrogant or something if i ask him to try something different so good idea, im just going to follow. i hope it'll work out with two guitars.

mark and henry, so you think maybe i should find another class? i really have no idea how two guitars are going to work. the last thing i want to do is go in there and complicate everything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 13:11:21

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: accompanying dancers question/le... (in reply to at_leo_87)

In regards to your question of two guitars, I have been accompanying a dance class since last year with another guitarist and it has worked very well. We started getting together to work out arrangments of the pieces the instructor wants to teach. We are both at approx the same level playing wise, but he brings some skills to class that I lack and vice versa so I feel we compliment each other.
Last spring we worked a bit on Bulerias and found that other than keeping basic compas, it worked better if we alternated playing.
We are currently working on Tangos De Malaga and it really sounds good with both of us playing. During the Falsetta, he plays the melody while I strum the associated chords and then the next time we switch.
The dance instructor told us it doesn't have to be fancy for class, just stay in Compas. I have really enjoyed working with another guitarist becuase if there is something I miss he might catch it and again vice versa...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2009 14:03:29

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

hey sig,
i hope my experience will be as good as yours. how do you guys keep it tight for something like bulerias? do you just play something really simple?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2009 3:32:37

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

Yup, we keep it real simple, for example using A, Bb and making sure we are in Compas and not missing any accents. We work with the Metronome when we practice inorder to keep things in the proper groove.

I think if you can communicate with the other person, learn from each other and not turn it into a ego contest things will work out well...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2009 6:17:55

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

how do you guys keep it tight for something like bulerias? do you just play something really simple?

yep!!

keep it simple, and listen to the dancer, the feet, the rhythms, the variations, in time they should start to tell you how to vary things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2009 14:44:32

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

how do you guys keep it tight for something like bulerias? do you just play something really simple?

everything everyone said and

use your feet...that's your own safety net...takes the guessing and the hoping out of it...in class if theres no palmas wich most of the time isnt... using your own feet to keep compas is probably one of the the most important and best thing you can do for yourself ..otherwise you always relying on other people and they could be wrong..or its very eazy to allow yourself to go off if the dancer all the sudden changes footwork to offbeats...etc

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2009 14:51:27

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

awesome, thanks for the great tips everyone. well nothing is official yet but im bringing my guitar in on monday. i really hope things will work and it'll be fun. wish me luck!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2009 21:50:37

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

wish me luck!

Good luck!

I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy yourself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2009 23:09:49

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

thanks graham!

so it looks like i'm "in". although playing with the other guitarist was a bit difficult sometimes but i think the class enjoyed it.

we kept it basic for the most part. he added little things here and there and i just tried to follow him as best as i could.

but by keeping it simple, it got a bit boring! any suggestions on how to do deal with this? he usually keeps it simple anyways but is there anything we can do to spice it up?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2009 19:47:09

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

but by keeping it simple, it got a bit boring! any suggestions on how to do deal with this? he usually keeps it simple anyways but is there anything we can do to spice it up?

The easiest thing to do to spice it is try different chords, or different voicings of the same chords (like higher positions). You can also try different strumming patterns, in particular it's easier to experiment or play a little scale in beats 7-8-9.

This is all for you, the dancers won't notice it a bit as long as you keep in compas which is all they care about. The harsh reality is when doing dance accompaniment, they are the dance, you are just the accompaniment...

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Guy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2009 21:31:41

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to gshaviv)

quote:

but by keeping it simple, it got a bit boring! any suggestions on how to do deal with this? he usually keeps it simple anyways but is there anything we can do to spice it up?

best oportunity to play and experimenting with complimenting eachothers rithm...

for example in buleria he does the 10 and you do the 11 then comes back on the 12..

u know what i mean ? u dont have to play exactly at the same beats but add half beats to compliment the rithm he does..play offbeats etc..theres many things you can do

and if one of you is just doing rithm the other can do soloing over it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 0:05:33

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

keep it simple, but keep it an art!! Things dont play themselves, in case of doubt they need to be worked out, also with the dancer. If you say dancer doesnt notice what you do, then this is a bad sign. Being accompaniment does not mean that it is unimportant what to play, or that it doesnt need dedication. It is an art which has to be practiced and brought in accordance to the dance it accompanies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 2:00:50

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

good ideas, guys. sounds like i'll need to do more communication with the other guitarist and more experimenting. it was only my first class after all. when being the only guitarist, i guess i gotta grow more balls and be brave enough to experiment.

how long did you guys play for dancers? and for how many different dance classes?

i just signed up for another class. i hope i'm not overloading myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 9:49:56

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

i been doing classes about 10 - 12 years

i dont know how many classes...do you mean a day ?

i think most i have ever done is 3 classes a day

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 10:25:56

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to Florian)

quote:

i been doing classes about 10 - 12 years

i dont know how many classes...do you mean a day ?

i think most i have ever done is 3 classes a day

wow, that's a long time. well i do a beginners and intermediate class on monday for one dance class then i might be joining another beginner and intermediate class on saturday for a different dance class. so i'm wondering if that's too much and maybe i should just focus on one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 14:16:00

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

nah its fine...the more the better...just use recordings and practice at home on all the stuff you do in classes

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 14:18:21

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

ok cool. thanks florian.

the funny thing is the teacher asked me what palos i could play and i said all the more popular ones. i need work on fandangos and siguiriyas. and guess what they're working on.... fandangos and siguiriyas.

thank god i joined jason's website.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 14:25:42

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

lol..youl be fine man...just keep it simple...all they want is rithm...if they want a falseta they will ask you for it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2009 14:55:05

granjuanillo

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 3 2009

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to XXX)

I spent several years playing for classes in Amor de Dios in Madrid (the old Amor de Dios). I often had guitarists play along with me and never minded, as long as they respected the rules.

One guitarist (in this case, me) was getting paid and had the responsibility of supporting the instructor - that means play slow when he wanted it slow, speed up when he wanted it to speed up, play falsetas where appropriate and not where not. In Spain, instructors are not shy about throwing you a dirty look or making a rather curt (to say the least) comment if you mess up.

If I messed up, it was my problem. However, when other guitarists came in and stated playing a mile a minute and showing off their falsetas, they were not the ones who'd take the heat. I once messed up my right hand pounding out slow compas trying to keep three eager guitarists in line. On the other hand, if guitarists held back, we ended up working out nice stuff. So, the reason to defer to the lead guitarist is not so much about territory or who is better; rather it is about who has the responsibility.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2009 11:13:06

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

The 3-6-9-12 what we call from German translated the "Walz-step". The typical bulerias step (where the foot slides, know what I mean?) is one. In most cases the 8 and 10 instead of 9 shouldn't bother the dancer. You can pull the 10 back to 9 (make the chord change earlier). Sometimes the dancer wants you to follow the feet, sometimes hold the basis, there's no right or wrong, it's taste.

The Jerez bulerias only count six accenting the 6 and the 12 with the foot. Thinking in that rhythm, you can do Dm-C7-A#-A each for six beats, so in all 2 compás - just like Moraíto does in the Encuentro video so often.

Though I see now the subject has changed! Do what the pro does - once you're good enough try out things an long as you're quiet enough. Ask lots of questions - you'll learn a lot and the pro will feel respected and important, win-win

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2009 14:05:38

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to John O.)

Granjuanillo that's rough. Are mics for guitarists looked down on in Spain? I got tired of ruining my joints to prove how loud I can play

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2009 14:07:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14829
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: accompanying dancers question (in reply to at_leo_87)

Normally bulerias you could simply be marking out the chords for the cante which should be there too. The dancer should know where that is in what she is teaching and sort of "sing" it if she or he can. But if just compas is required for say a technique exercise, no reason to get bored just playing ONE chord or two chords all day, so long as you have good compas with the RH (meaning you have both solid tempo AND the appropriate type of strumming patterns to use).

For 12,3,6,9 you can simply accent that but on the 9 you do a triplet rasgueado and emphasize it. ami i. the last note is the 10 but you feel the a finger on the accented 9th beat when the dancer's foot goes down. That is standard, but there are much funkier things to do that work. But at your level get solid with just that. I could do it all day and not get bored honestly but you have to really feel it and groove with it. To make it feel more symmetrical you can do the same triplet rasgueado on the 3.

Be respectful of other players, but if you really are confident you know something is more "correct" or typical, simply do it, no need to discuss it. If the dancer does not want it she or he will tell you.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2009 12:42:10