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Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
I remember a couple years ago, someone posted(ebay link) a graphite "flamenco" guitar here. I think it was a Rainsong and the model had been discontinued. It was very expensive but nobody knew how it sounded.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
i played a carbon fiber steel string guitar the other day. it was LOUD, sounded surprisingly like wood and was pretty balanced all around. slightly colder sound though.
i wouldn't be surprised if one day somebody made a good flamenco with carbon fiber.
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
Yes, wood is the best. It feels good, it smells good, it looks good, its nice to work, its romantic, its connection with mother nature, its a way of feeling free. More power to wood. Plant a tree!
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
Perhaps it'll sound better if they use the violin-wood-fungus on those plastic guitars....it looked like Darth Vader with, I must say, an unique soundport....at least "the black rider" did.
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Patrick)
quote:
[Patrick:] RainSong has been building steel strings with carbon fiber for years. I don't know if anyone has tried it on classical or flamencos.
It's been tried for a classical by an excellent luthier who likes to experiment, and rejected because it didn't sound good.
quote:
[at_leo_87 :] i wouldn't be surprised if one day somebody made a good flamenco with carbon fiber.
I would be surprised. But it could be useful for gigs because you wouldn't have to worry about it being damaged. (Pimientito once wrote something about 'never lend your guitar to a gypsy, when you get it back it will need re-finishing...' - so it would solve that problem )
I totally agree with Anders.
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RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
It's been tried for a classical by an excellent luthier who likes to experiment, and rejected because it didn't sound good.
Yeah Estevan,
But Edison made heaps and heaps of light bulbs and rejected each one, but learned from them all.
There is no one single "Carbon Fibre" sheet in the same way there is no one single "Wood".
You can alter the matrix and structure in millions of different combinations, so I do not doubt that in time it will be possible to emulate the very best spruce or cedar, but in a completely consistent way.
It may not even be Carbon Fibre but some other hybrid.
As to when that will be, I have no idea, nor do I even wish it to happen.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to El Saare)
quote:
Love Nature
yes, but our love of nature is actually killing it. you have to kill trees to make guitar. if you really loved nature, you would have a guitar made out of recycled materials. lol.
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
The problem with wood is that its getting difficult to get. And yes it will be serious soon. Cypress in the size that we need to build guitars is now almost non existant in Spain. We now import from Turqey, but they are just cutting down. Not really planting anything. Look at what happened to Scotlands Caledonian forest, the Braz rosewood, take a look at what is happening in Canada etc.
Plant a tree.
The day that circumstances will tell me to build with synthetic materials, I will simply stop building and do something else. I like wood and besides, I dont think you can make a synthetic substitute that will give you the same quality experience both as a builder and a player.
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
The day that circumstances will tell me to build with synthetic materials, I will simply stop building and do something else.
I like that!
I think that gives us all a great insight into why guitar builders do what they do.
So when you buy a hand crafted guitar, you are actually buying a lot more than just technical expertise and experience, you are buying a piece of art, a piece of the builder's philosophy and soul, in the same way that if you buy a Tomatito album, you are not buying just a technical recording of notes being played on a guitar.
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
Hi all
Many things have been said already about this topic, but nevertheless i 'd like to add my point of view as well.
For me there is no substitute for nature and and there will never be. Even if we think that we have beat nature with our inventions and our technology, we often have to admit sooner or later that we didn't. There are so many reasons why to accept nature as it is. There are so many beautiful woods that we cannot replace. I like to work with wood because i like it's feeling, its smell, its workability, its tone etc... Even the most advanced syntetic material couldn't ever replace these qualities. The problem is, that human beeing has exploited natural ressources for short term financial reasons in a irresponsible and egoistic manner. Such behavour is the cause why some of the best and most beautiful woods are aready under cites and no longer availlable to the luthier. I share the opinion of Anders, that we might soon become major problems to get a number of precious woods for luthery. So let's purchase FSC woods whenever possible.
To luthiers i recommend to critically ask where the wood comes from and how it has been harvested. We are the first to be responsible for the wood we purchase. We cannot expect from the customer to know this things as it might be very difficult even for the luthier to know what kind of wood has been sold to us.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
well i would like to jump into the fire on this one. if the generally accepted axiom that the soundboard is the primary contributor to sound, and torres' paper mache (sp?) guitar worked using paper mache for the sides and back, and that ovation guitars produced an acceptable if not good sound, then why not a synthetic for the sides and back? one could probably produce a guitar with sides and back made from synthetics such as kevlar, s-glass, wood laminate for appearance and epoxy or vinylester (a much better product that polyester resin). if indeed the soundboard is the primary producer of sound, and if the sides and back are often built to reflect sound (a la smallman) then, in theory, one should be able to produce a good sounding guitar out of synthetics (for that matter, the neck could be made with synthetics as well).
i understand there is an attitude that wood has to be the material of choice but given the increasing shortage of wood as well as other variables, then, why not?
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
I think we should all play mass produced graphite guitars with titanium tuners and paper mache' backs...Torres would be so proud! Not meant to p anyone off, just a sarcastic statement. One of the reasons that I am so enamored with flamenco is the tradition, and I don't want to lose it.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
jlneng--no reason for anyone to get p*ssed off for having a serious "above the belt" discussion. i am sure back in the late 19th century there were a few folks who could not imagine not having a horse underneath them and refused to sit on a seat in a horseless carriage. the beauty of humans is that we somehow figure out a solution to problems and often times that puts us on a route we could not imagine. that said, someone might be able to pull this off--someone with a love of working with wood and composites.
personally i love wood guitars and my flamenco has pegs and in my opinion metal should not be on a flamenco guitar (except for the frets of course). but that is my opinion and i am sure machine heads cannot envision themselves having to turn a piece of wood to get their guitar in tune.
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to keith)
Interesting discussion.
I too, will prefer traditional woods. However wood tops with some synthetic back and sides may be inevitable. I wonder if expansion and shrinkage differences would be a serious problem with such a comination.
Then there is the alternative wood choice, at least for the back and sides. Has anyone seen or played a blanca with wood other than the cypress or maple varieties?
I believe that luthier Les Stansell makes blancas from Port Orford cedar as well as Myrtlewood.
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to ngiorgio)
quote:
Has anyone seen or played a blanca with wood other than the cypress or maple varieties?
There is no need to look any further as far as blancas are concerned. European Sycamore (maple) is a weed tree here in the UK. There are hundreds within a mile of me. And its great wood for guitars. The problem is, its not the traditional Spanish wood so it won't be used for the best instruments until the Cypress runs out.
And as I understand it the Indian government manages its timber reasonably well so there should be a long term supply of Rosewood too.
So the question of composites is really just a question of how good they are for guitar making. For me, it will always be wood.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Is wood the best material for ma... (in reply to Ron.M)
krichards: i agree about sycamore being a great wood--it has a lot of characteristics of cypress (except for the great aroma). the problem with scyamore is that it has been used on inexpensive guitars--i.e., tops that are in the "OK" range and not as thin as one would expect on a high quality blanca. the wood, sadly, is "guilty" by association; that being, it is thought to be a low class wood because it is almost paired with low end factory guitars. i think until scyamore, for a blanca, is used on a high end guitar it will always be associated with inexpensive factory built guitars.
as to how a wood/composite guitar will perform? ovation has been doing it for years so i guess there is the answer. i think a wood/kevlar/ s-glass combo would make for an interesting side and back guitar. add vacuum bagging to get the weight low and one could have a light side and back.
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