Need some help after dremel accident

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r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

Need some help after dremel accident

I wonder if some of the luthers can help me with a purfling patern for a purfling channel of 11 mm high :-(

The bit in the dremel came lose making the channel deeper and deeper aaaahhhh...

Maybe a haringbone like Antonio de Torres?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2009 12:14:58

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

oh oh!! how about having a a thick piece of cypress in there with a thin black vaneer. and further up a peice of rosewood like a normal binding. it will be difficult to disguise so this way it will hopefully look like you've inlayed a black vaneer in there. could would out nicely i think

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 0:00:45

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Do you have the offcuts for the sides before you either bend them or fit the back. If so and you can do it well I might consider using that to bring you back to normal purfling dimensions. You will have to clean up your channel first, making sure it is perfectly consistent and get the new wood to register correctly in terms of grain direction and runout. I would thin out the new wood to the thickness of your channel to make fitting easier.

It could be a pain but a clever way to get out of this situation.

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 7:50:25

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

I had a similar thing happen with my router, with a round-over bit in it while
doing some furniture work. However the router being a lot more powerfull
the bit bit in, and then bent, and not only did it destroy the piece I was
working on, but it destroyed the bit, and bent the router motor shaft. I
think the total time for it to happen was about 1 microsecond. Way faster
than my reaction time.

A mistake, I will NEVER repeat. :)

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 7:59:08

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

First of all, thanks for the suggested solutions.

I just checked the off cuts, they all to short and I tried to puzzle them back together but I miss a lot of pieces.
Unfortunately this is the only cypress I have :-( so I can’t get a strip to glue in to bring it back to original height for the binding. I do have two sets of rosewood I could use to get a strip but it will make it look like I made a mistake And one set is bend for a twelve steel string. (sorry for cursing:-)

The bit coming loose is not the first time but it never destroyed my router or dremel, only my guitar! I think I am going to buy a purfling knife because I used a router on the first guitar but then the channel get uneven due to the shape of the back.

Maybe a herringbone could work like below, or would that be ugly?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 11:37:31

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Aaron Green gave you the best answer, unfortunately as you say the cutoffs from the side won't work. Sometimes an error occurs and you just have to accept the fact that it is pretty much uncorrectable. Find a piece of light colored wood, cut and sand it to the size of your channel and glue it in. Then recut your binding channel and install the binding. Plan on making this guitar a nice dark orange color. It won't show much and won't hurt the sound of the guitar. Putting in herringbone or wierd purfling only highlights the mistake.

Just my opinion and it's probably worth what it cost you. Good luck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 14:37:02

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Good advice on the dark orange finish.

Are there any guitarmakers in your area who might have some cypress laying around? I am sure you could find some that looks like that enough to make it work. Or you could buy another set of cypress and cut off the strips off the sides. Just be sure to leave enough wood for the next guitar you build. I have not dealt with Barber but Marta over at Rivolta is a great lady and she might be able to pick out a set with sides that are close to what you have there if you send her a photo.

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 17:43:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Robbie

The Heringbone will IMO make the guitar look kitch.

Aarons and Johns advices are the best.

Cutting for bindings is always a complicated thing. The Dremel is not strong enough. It can be used for a final cut, where you´ve cut away some 80 of the material with a router or with a chisel/gramil.

Most of us here in Spain use a laminate trimmer, where we glue on a small piece of wood or plastic with an angle when we route the back. Its a compromise and the channel never turns out perfect. You can buy jigs on the market which make a perfect cut. (money money money)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2009 23:13:39

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

The problem with just sticking cypress to it would mean, even if done perfectly you would still be left with a glue line! The herring bone idea is ok. It's down to preference at this point. I would suggest most people would prefer something alittle more delicate.

Search for guitars with double backs. On some of the ones I have seen there bindings are quite big so it might help you decided what looks good

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 0:17:31

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Well, I have made up my mind.

I try to find some Cypress to glue in and then start all over routing for the binding. Maybe Ill add a black veneer as SEden sugested, since I can not hide this screw up and it will always be visable.

I agree that it looks kitsch with the herringbone, but if I cant find cypress it may be the only option. I will look also for a laminate trimmer. The jig for a perfect cut... How many jigs do you need to build a guitar? There are lots of them.

Thanks for the response, I will take some pictures once this is solved.

Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 2:30:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Robbie

I dont use that perfectbindingchannelcuttingjig and I dont know od any Spanish builder using one.

If you clean very well before gluing the cypress strip on, you can make it difficult to see especially if using a dark orange finish

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 3:44:04

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Hi Rob,
What you really need first is a good gramil. LMI sells them. I always use that to score my binding and purfling lines. Routers can cause chip out and the scored lines keep this from happening. When you clean up your mistake, use the gramil to give you a nice straight edge and a very sharp chisel and you should be able to get a good clean joint. If you use a dark veneer line just make sure you do it for all four bindings. I think that might even look pretty good and of course it will look like you meant it, which is the best way to hide a mistake.
A good laminate trimmer is better than a dremel for routing the bindings. I have two, an old Ryobi and a DeWalt. Both are good enough for the job and are what I used for many years. I now have a swing arm jig that makes for less cleanup but I still end up using a chisel and file to perfect my binding ledges.

Let us know how you fare,
aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 5:37:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: r0bbie

I will look also for a laminate trimmer. The jig for a perfect cut... How many jigs do you need to build a guitar? There are lots of them.

Stewart MacDonald sells a binding cutting jig that works ok. I use it with a high quality Makita laminate trimmer. You're looking at $300-400 or so depending on the cost of the router. Well worth it in my opinion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 6:39:43

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

Some one on this forum sugested http://www.akustikwood.com/ to get cypress wood, they seem to be cheap, back and sides for 48 euro. I think I order 2 or 3 sets and see if they match the sides I have "runed" (they where 120 euro including the back) If they do match close I dont use a black veneer.

Ill order the gramil :-)

John, If I can build one or two guitars a year I am happy but then the jig would be a bit overdone I think. If you make a living out of building guitars I would consider buying one. It looks easy on their "TellSell" video. Still they are expensive.

Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 10:06:06

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

I also encountered such problem recently and here is what I did.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 10:43:08

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: r0bbie

Some one on this forum sugested http://www.akustikwood.com/ to get cypress wood, they seem to be cheap, back and sides for 48 euro. I think I order 2 or 3 sets and see if they match the sides I have "runed" (they where 120 euro including the back) If they do match close I dont use a black veneer.

Ill order the gramil :-)

John, If I can build one or two guitars a year I am happy but then the jig would be a bit overdone I think. If you make a living out of building guitars I would consider buying one. It looks easy on their "TellSell" video. Still they are expensive.

Rob.

I'm the one who suggested the Akustikwood. I suspect you'll be very pleased with the quality at that price. All of the cypress I bought from them was green though. I still haven't used any of it since it needs a few years to cure properly. I suppose if you took a small strip off the green sides once it was steamed and bent it would be ok to use but I would still be a little concerned about shrinkage as it ages.

Re: the binding jig
I just bought one last year. I started with a home made cutter (gramil) and chisels then moved up to a laminate trimmer after about 10 years. Thirty some years later I moved up to the jig. I wish I'd bought it sooner since it really does simplify the binding operation. By the way, it is not as simple to use as the video implies. In fact getting the cut started is more than little scary especially the first couple of times.

All you really need is a good laminate trimmer. It seems to me that a dremel tool does not have enough horse power to do the job right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 12:57:20

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to jshelton5040)

@Mike, Thanks for sharing this photo, there is hope after all :-)

@John, First of all I must thank you for the Turkish supplier of wood, they are cheap and as a Dutchman I can appreciate that :-) I did however not realize that the wood has to dry before I can use it ( in terms of years that is)
I have been to a Dutch Luther ( John van Gool) who kept his wood outside under a roof to dry. Can I ask how you dry the cypress before you think you can use it?

About the binding jig, when reading the posts earlier it seems like it is not done to use something like that but I don’t see why. After all, the guitar should be well balanced by now and the bindings don’t contribute to the final sound. A jig just makes life easier for such small detail. Why not use it if it saves a lot of time?

Sometimes I which this forum was in Dutch so I could express my feelings better without giving the impression of being ignorant or stubborn. I am but don’t tell anybody !

Thanks a lot for the suggestions,
Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 14:50:25

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

ORIGINAL: r0bbie

@John, First of all I must thank you for the Turkish supplier of wood, they are cheap and as a Dutchman I can appreciate that :-) I did however not realize that the wood has to dry before I can use it ( in terms of years that is)
I have been to a Dutch Luther ( John van Gool) who kept his wood outside under a roof to dry. Can I ask how you dry the cypress before you think you can use it?

About the binding jig, when reading the posts earlier it seems like it is not done to use something like that but I don’t see why. After all, the guitar should be well balanced by now and the bindings don’t contribute to the final sound. A jig just makes life easier for such small detail. Why not use it if it saves a lot of time?

Sometimes I which this forum was in Dutch so I could express my feelings better without giving the impression of being ignorant or stubborn. I am but don’t tell anybody !

Thanks a lot for the suggestions,
Rob.

I congratulate you on your excellent English. I studied French and Spanish and know how difficult it is to be fluent in a foreign tongue. I have never achieved anywhere near your fluency in either of the ones I studied.

Curing wood is one of those areas of guitar making that in my opionion needs a great deal more exposure. We keep new wood in a loft in our shop for 2 or 3 years then move it to the humidity and temperature controlled environment in the assembly area. Depending on the type of wood it needs anywhere from one to ten more years before it's ready to use in a guitar. One develops a sense of when a piece of wood is ready to use. It varies from one piece to another.

I could spend all my time making jigs to simplify the process of making guitars. I have jigs for cutting and tapering fingerboards, sawing frets, locating string spacing on nuts and bridges, setting neck deflection, etc. It's a fascinating diversion but you have to decide if the time spent developing and manufacturing the jig is well spent. A jig that takes 100 hours to make and saves you 10 minutes on each guitar is not really a good use of your time. I suspect that is the explanation for the aversion to these expensive gadgets but some of them are really valuable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2009 16:14:23

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

I also bought from Akustikwood.

The quality was so so. Definately not very well quartered. They have promised me that I can send them a piece of wood and that they´ll pick something of that quality.
Yes, the wood is very green. If you leave it in a dry, ventilated and warm place with small sticks in between, I could imagine that you could use it after a year. I store like John, some 3 - 5 years, the last 6 month or more in my workshop.
BTW. Their spruce is very well cut. They send me 12 sets totally identical and top quality. I havent build with it yet (drying) but I like its tone etc and will buy more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2009 0:15:41

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

For bindings I use a makita laminate with a 16mm flute cutter. The base tilts so you can add compensation for the back curve.

I have used the premium cypress before. I thought it was excellent. I have also had students who have used the spruce. it was very stiff.

They say all there wood has been air dried for 3 years. they can be slow to ship and comunicate though and the minimum order is 200 euro!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2009 0:37:44

Escribano

Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

I congratulate you on your excellent English

I lived in Amsterdam for 2 years and they all seemed to speak excellent English, French and German - I learned very, very little Dutch and most of that was rude (and mostly about Germans)

But let's not forget Anders - our fluent Danish, Spanish, English speaking luthier and he has that weird Scandi sense of humour.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2009 10:32:16

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

I learned very, very little Dutch and most of that was rude (and mostly about Germans)

To be honnest, I am half German... so watch where you are going now

But if you want I can teach you some more "Dutch"

Ill just order three back and side sets and one or two tops and put them on the shelf to let them dry.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2009 11:58:02

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to r0bbie)

If you contact Akustic wood he'll sell you an odd number of sides so you can use one for your repair.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2009 1:35:00

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Need some help after dremel accident (in reply to prd1)

Good advice prd1,

I added the picture above when ordering the wood and asked for a extra side.
Today I received a email in response to my order and they sold me one side and included 4 extra pieces for free.

They shipped the wood today and expect me to pay after I receive the wood.
Talking about service?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2009 11:58:20