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getting "good" tone?   You are logged in as Guest
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henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

getting "good" tone? 
after a conversation i had with ramin in the barbadillo bodega, when we were talking tone or "toque". the story goes i was playing ricardos cd for a friend in ireland who happens to be spanish, and said "who's the new flamenco player" and was surprised when i told him ricardo was american but had studied with one of the best flamenco players in the world, and said ricardos sound was muy flamenco and muy moderno.

how does one achieve that somewhat elusive "sound" that is flamenco, and does not sound like nuevo flamenco, but that gritty, tight and strong tone.

is it simply the angle of attack in arpeggios, picado or pulgar. or does it require searching for that sound continuosly whilst doing slow practice?

but good flamenco tone IMHO opinion is what separates the imitators from the true performers. personally i look up to cepero, moraito and tomate and even though my hands are not the same shape i look to create that tone.

im wondering whether we can have a discussion about obtaining true flamenco guitar tone, because most other threads refer to repetoire or specific technique performance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2009 14:26:50
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to henrym3483) 
acquisition of tone starts with bribery, then coercion and black mail, eventually murder and stealing souls i think.... WAIT, that's politics lol

I spend a great deal of time in a tai chi like state of practicing incredibly slowly, freeing my hands and body of unnecessary tension paying attention to the minute differences that come from every single adjustment of angles etc.

programming in good tone at super slow speed and then maintaining it by building up good habits with a metronome and regularly revisiting slow speeds is how i get tone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2009 15:06:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to henrym3483) 
It is about the ear and your personal tastes. Of course there can be technical details that make the difference, but it is easier when you can simply hear yourself play. That is why it is good to record yourself. I personally feel a "modern" sound is more the result of the actual music and recording techniques than the attack or interpretation. For example, Nunez plays Impetu and it is only "modern" in the sense of how it was recorded IMO. There is some "jerez" bounce in there different than Paco or Escudero's versions, but that is not really "modern" to me. But for sure a recording done now a days of say Ramon Montoya himself would sound quite different than it did back in the 30s. I feel that not much has changed though in the way he attacked the strings when playing pulgar or alzapua, arpegio etc, vs any modern players that have a "flamenco" sound too. Sure the music is different, but the way to play it is basically the same.

PS for the record, there are a lot of little details on my disc that when I hear them jump out at me as "americano" or non spaniard, and it actually annoys me. My personal tastes forced my sound to evolve over the years to what it is now, but in the end I can't change who I am you know?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2009 20:50:29
 
buddytalk

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Jun. 28 2009
 

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to henrym3483) 
"but good flamenco tone" henrym3483


"It is about the ear".
"little details on my disc that when I hear them jump out at me as "americano" or non spaniard, and it actually annoys me". Ricardo


"programming in good tone at super slow speed and then maintaining it by building up good habits with a metronome and regularly revisiting slow speeds is how i get tone". HemeolaMan

Now this is a nice thread already I hope the three of you can make
great progress with it as there is much value in it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 0:07:00
 
M.S.A.

 

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:23:31
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 6:39:27
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

It is about the ear and your personal tastes.


…and in your case, Ricardo, an unquestionably refined taste seems to guide your choices.

There is that exquisite tone we rarely achieve, and perhaps solely when calmly contemplating the lingering resonance of a chord or even a single note. This is the standard I pursue but scarcely sustain. Every single note deserves the attention and effort we typically only devote to performing the entire piece. It takes an ascetically focused ear to allocate such degree of consideration to each individual sound we make, but I am afraid there is no other way.

I found it, however, when I first discovered our own Jim Opfer’s self-indulging “slow-hand” producing a uniquely elegant sound, almost as if he is playing to hear how the guitar sounds… and it sounds brilliantly sweet.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 7:28:01
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Wow..

Difficult subject to explain in words IMO.

Flamenco tone, to me is like "sophisticated naivety" or "smooth crudeness", so very different from the Classical tone and Bossa nylon guitar tone etc.
Really hard to explain....

Ricardo, I hear what you are saying, but I think that's because you care a lot about what you play and I think you sell yourself short here, as your CD's general tone and phrasing etc stands up pretty well to the established non-gringo players IMO (and as you know, I'm pretty unashamedly critical about that kinda stuff. )

It's funny, 'cos when I hear, say... Clapton...I can tell he's a white guy with a good blues guitar technique, but when I hear, say... Hendrix play some of his less crazy stuff, he sounds like a black player...even though he was brought up a thousand miles away from the south.

Admittedly, he spent a lot of time doing session work for black groups though.

It's maybe that music, in phrasing and tone and the subtler things finds it's own centre of gravity within the folk you work and associate with?

Interesting subject.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 11:29:00
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to Ron.M) 
some really good replies so far, when trying to get tone i go for volume, strength and the apoyando being in all pulgar techs rather than brushing.

as regards picado ive never really been satisfied with it, listening to some records picado can sound very "wet" on the trebles but i aim for the crisp sound.

as regards the nail shaping ive reffered to scott tennants book pumping nylon.

quote:

It's funny, 'cos when I hear, say... Clapton...I can tell he's a white guy with a good blues guitar technique, but when I hear, say... Hendrix play some of his less crazy stuff, he sounds like a black player...even though he was brought up a thousand miles away from the south.


i dunno if i could tell if clapton was white from a cd, i heard a cd he did of rob johnsons material and it sounded quite good.

but thing is would it be any hard to tell a person was spanish or non spanish by listening to him.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 15:16:27
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: getting "good" tone? (in reply to henrym3483) 
getting a sound port helps. now i'm sounding like florian with the advertisements. LOL.

but seriously, i think it has to do with attitude too. i try to think of the tone i want in my head, the impression that it gives me, the feeling. then i just put that feeling through my fingers.

hope i made some sense...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2009 17:38:32
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