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In Spain, 20 June (today) is officially dedicated to the Spanish language. I'm not sure if that's the case in any other Spanish-speaking countries, but I thought it would be a good reason to post some examples of politically incorrect verse, just to give people an idea of how these letras are nothing more than traditional verse. There are cultural differences that don't translate well, so if anyone feels offended, please take my word for it that nobody sings these letras with the intention of being racist or obscene.
I hadn't realized it, but these examples are concentrated in the recordings of El Gloria and La Niña de los Peines, although there are others. It's important to remember the circumstances of the times of these artists. We often think of liberal non-conformist thinking as a post-WWII phenomenon (the beatniks, the hippies), but the generation that saw the Spanish civil war was so far out there that they nearly tore apart their own society. In art, we can find examples of this in music, literature, cinema, painting and sculpture, and obviously other fields like politics and ideology were similarly shaken up. What I'm trying to say is that human rights, alternative lifestyles and fraternity are not recent developments in Spain, so nobody should feel offended by these letras.
El Niño Gloria (Rafael Ramos Antúnez) seems to have the lion's share of scandalous letras. He was born in Jerez (c/Nueva, like Terremoto and Morao) in 1893 and worked the fields as a young man (like Tío Borrico). Toward the end of the 1920s, he moved to the "Alameda de Hércules" area of Seville, as did several other Jerez-based artists like María La Moreno and Manuel Torre. These artists may very well have taken with them certain cantes that were developed in the following decades, especially bulerías por soleá. He made a few recordings between 1929 and 1931, but the Spanish civil war pretty much ruined his promising career, and they say that he died in absolute poverty at some point in the 1950s.
Not sure of the exact meaning of this one, but it sounds like a crazy all-nighter to me:
Ay, ¿qué me has hecho? guárdame los limones que tienes en el pecho
What have you done to me? Put away those lemons that you've got on your chest
The Zambo brothers recorded this one on that great all-bulería CD they made a few years ago with Moraíto. Some singers mumble or omit the reference to Catalonia.
Al atravesar un barranco dijo un negro con afán: Dios mío, quién fuera blanco aunque fuera catalán
Upon crossing a gully a black man said obsessively "My God, to be white even if it meant being Catalonian"
This one could be the worst-sounding of all, although I think the way to interpret it is that everyone stinks. Manuel Vallejo recorded it around the same time as El Gloria.
Las negras huelen a queso las mulatitas a aceitunas y las señoritas blancas huelen a piña madura
Black women smell like cheese mulatto women smell like olives and white girls smell like ripe pineapple
La Niña de los Peines (Pastora Pavón Cruz) was no stranger to controversy. She began singing in public at a very early age in her natal Seville (b. 1890), and she performed professionally in a venue in Madrid when she was just nine years old. Gypsy girls and women are usually not allowed such freedom by their protective families, but this family was in need of money because the father, a blacksmith, had fallen ill. She posed for the painter Zuloaga in Bilbao around 1903, and a few years later was hired to perform in a venue in Jerez de la Frontera. Aside from all the travelling, independence and career opportunities, she had a series of romances that were not successful until she married the non-gypsy singer Pepe Pinto in 1933, when she was 43 years old. During the Spanish civil war, she supported the Republic by singing for the troops and even posing for photos with them. Imagine what kind of position that left her in when Franco's fascist forces won the war. They say that, years later, Franco attended one of her theater performances and went backstage to meet the artists. He greeted her by her first name and she supposedly looked up, wincing, and said, "You know who I am?" to which he responded, "Of course! Everyone knows who Pastora is!" In any case, she certainly led an unusual lifestyle for an "uneducated" gypsy woman. Some of her letras seem to ridicule the status quo.
The first three are from her famous bulería de Cádiz recorded with Melchor in 1950. (She first recorded this letra at a fast soleá tempo in 1917 with Currito el de La Jeroma.) I wonder what Franco thought about the line "mire usted qué gracia tiene este país."
Cai es una población que le gusta al forastero aquí no sirve alegría lo que sirve es el dinero
Cadiz is a town that out-of-towners love happiness isn't worth anthing here what counts is having money
Con el caray, que caray, caray, ¡qué fiesta más grande van a hacer en Cai! que las hambres las vamos a sentir que mire usted qué gracia tiene este país
Oh, caray, caray, caray What a great party they're going to have in Cadiz! We're going to go hungry. What a funny country this is!
Habrá frijones pegaos y en las casas de los vecinos y habrá chuleta empaná cuando vengan los maridos
There will be left-over beans in the houses of the neighborhood And when the husbands come home from work they'll get breaded pork chops
This one's from "Por los balcones del cielo," which has got some of the best singing I've heard in my life. It's a Christmas bulería, and what makes it sound scandalous is the word "mentira" which isn't as negative sounding in Spanish as it is in English. Pastora was profoundly religious and was probably not making any kind of statement with this letra.
Esta noche nace el Niño... Y es mentira, que no nace estas son las ceremonias que tós los años le hacen
Tonight's the night that Jesus is born and it's a lie, he's not really born tonight These are just the ceremonies that they hold every year in his honor
Here's one of my favorites, because she's poking fun at those of us who speak Spanish with a foreign accent.
Una vez que de un inglés procedente de Londón, Me dice: «-Ay, beri güé. Báilese usted el garrotón.»
Once an Englishman who came from London said to me, "Very well. Now dance the garrotón."
I've never heard of anyone expressing their surprise over this one, but I can't help thinking that it must have irritated some of the Franco regime's more fervent religious fanatics in 1947, when she recorded this with Melchor. I can't seem to find a reliable reference, but I'm pretty sure that the Spanish Inquisition wasn't entirely dismantled until the 19th or 20th century and that, toward the end, its officially recognized duties included censorship. In my mind, this letra packs a powerful punch, insofar as a study of human nature, but I might be reading more into it than is actually there.
A Dios no quiero, Ay, mientras que viva mi compañero
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
Cool stuff. Norman, I hear there is a lyric where a woman marries a dwarf for laughs. Do you know the lyrics for that one exactly? I would love to know that one in full!
Okay, this starts to get really dry and academic, but I'm responding because you asked for it.
quote:
is unambiguous AFAIK: "keep those ... for me"
The pronoun "me" ("guárdame") is sometimes added to involve the speaker in a way that is not related to the action of the verb. In this case, the idea might be, "Do me a favor and..."
The meaning of "guardar" is usually "to put something back in its original place" rather than "to save something for later," although both are possible.
In any case, this verse is pretty strange. I'd like to point out that nobody has accurately transcribed all of El Gloria's letras, mostly because of the audio quality of his recordings and also because of his pronunciation. For example, in this case, it sounds more like he says "¿Qué me han hecho?" (What have they done to me?) and "Guardar los limones" (without the pronoun). Here are two more examples from El Gloria (both available for listening and reading at the link I posted):
Cuando en la calle me veas no me mires ni te rías te das cuenta que estoy muerto o que tú a mí no me querias,
When you see me in the street don't look at me and don't laugh Just think of me as a dead man or that you never really loved me
Pasó como yo lo ví consecuencia del secreto de haber estao yo alli
It happened just as I saw it which is the result of the secret of me having being there
In the first example (brilliant bulería, BTW), I don't hear him saying the word "muerto" or anything similar. I think the second example is accurate, but he's either playing with the pronunciation of "consecuencia" or wasn't familiar with the word.
quote:
If you're poor (and poverty was very real in Spain), then cheese, olives, pineapples probably all are wonderful ..
Yeah, that's true!
quote:
Sounds more like "it's a lie he wasn't born ... " to me
The verse uses the present tense ("nace"), as well as the adverbial phrase "Esta noche," clearly indicating enactment or representation of some kind. Rejection of the whole concept (atheism) would require "no nació" or "nunca nació." The word "mentira" is used really generally, as in a false moustache or the money used in the board game Monopoly ("de mentira").
Here are two more that I forgot to include in the original post. The first one is part of a book-CD on a singer who died a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if it's going to be published (not my project). I'm not at all happy with the translation of this letra, to say the least, but it's the best I could do. There's nothing scandalous about it, but, let's just say that the original version is like Chaplin and the translation is like The Three Stooges.
Mira que buena es mi mare Me ha hecho unos calzoncillos De unos viejos de mi pare
Look how good my mother is She made me underpants from an old pair of my father’s
I suppose the supreme challenge would be translating this letra (part of Chaqueta's romeras):
A revolcarme a revolcarme en un capote que huele a carne
(I'll) roll around in a cape that smells like meat
You know, that other "old school" flamenco site had one thing going for it - a cool thread once about everyone's favourite letras. That was one cool thread. I saw a couple of real nice ones in a book, when I find the book I'll try and dig them up.
Posts: 1607
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
I've been busy, so my last post was just a quick reply.
quote:
The meaning of "guardar"
I was trying to be funny. My reference wasn't to guardar but to the vernacular meaning of "limones" as part of female anatomy. But obviously my brilliant wit wasnt appreciated Maybe I should go and join Ruben?
quote:
A revolcarme a revolcarme en un capote que huele a carne
Revolcar also means being felled (i.e. thrown down) and is often used in the context of the bullfighter being hit by the bull. apparently Camaron sung a version ending in "... que huele a sangre", which makes the reference even clearer
Wrong. I'd go into an explanation, you know, just to avoid this kind of misunderstanding, but I've already done that. It's in the text preceding your message.
Me casé con un enano, salerito pa jartarme de reir.
Pa jartarme de reir, le puse la cama en alto, ole salerito y ole, le puse la cama en alto, salerito, y no se pudo subir.
Y eso sí que fue de veras, que al bajarse de la cama, ole salerito y ole, que al bajarse de la cama, salerito se cayó en la escupidera.
Hi Val, Google translators don't yet do dialect! 'Pa jartarme de reir' would be 'Para hartarme de reir' in standard Spanish, meaning something like 'In order to have a good laugh', (really to laugh so much you're sick of it) or the internet term LMAO would be quite appropriate here.
I married a midget so that I'd LMAO
So that I'd LMAO I put the bed really high and he couldn't get up onto it
And what really happened is that when he got down from the bed he fell in the spittoon. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Um, hilarious.
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
Good stuff, everybody!
Thanks for the scoop on El Gloria, Norman. His name always pops up in Rito y Geografia, when interviewees rattle of their list of past greats, but I’ve been frustrated in my attempts to find much info about him (in English, anyway), and commercially available recordings are scarce.
I think another factor that makes a too literal interpretation of letras a bit dicey is the pastiche nature in which they’re put together in a given performance. A single letra can have its own obscurities and double meanings, but when you start mixing and matching different letras, it seems like you can end up with all kinds of “mixed messages”.
This common FdH close seems contradictory:
Arrimate ay, gitana mia Que yo sin ti no puedo vivir Vivir sin ti yo no puedo mas Ay gitana mia me vas a matar
Quitate del sol que te quema Quitate del sol que te pone Que la carita morena
My Spanish isn’t strong enough to offer my own translation, but the gist as understand it is “Come to me my gypsy girl, I can’t live without you, blah blah” in the first part, but then “If you stay out in the sun too long you’re gonna end up a little too "dark"” in the second part (I know I’m being a bit crude and grossly approximate in my interpretation….). Since these are fandangos letras, I'm assuming they're of non-gitano origin, so that second part is potentially offensive?
Maybe I’m not getting it quite right, but it seems like these two sentiments don’t quite match up, though it’s not uncommon for love song type lyrics to be both affectionate and condescending at once.
Maybe someone could start another thread on favorite letras, instead of us dwelling on the potentially conflictive ones.
quote:
His name always pops up in Rito y Geografia...
Hi Adam,
María Torre sings with a similar voice in the episode on Manuel Torre's family in Seville, and it sounds to me like Mairena is trying to make his voice sound like that in his bulería "El camino de Jerez" (el pollito que piaba...)
quote:
Am I way off on any of this?
There's very rarely a "message" formed by the combination of different letras. Singers choose letras for at least two different reasons: (1) because of the way the syllables fit the melody/compás, and, (2) when the singer is very good and knows several different letras that fit the cante well, because of some connection to the creator of that cante or the artist who made it popular (a "nod" to another artist). Enrique Morente said not too long ago that letras are like a hook to hang the cante on. I think the word he actually used was "clothes hanger" but the metaphor was that of hanging a painting on a wall. Anyway, there are exceptions (and not just romances), but letras are usually unrelated.
Your translation was close enough, IMO, although I'd point out that in the original version there's no mention of "too" dark, insofar as surpassing a limit, and all it says is that the sun's going to make her face dark. So, you're asking if the meaning of the letra has to do with a non-gypsy man expressing his aversion to dark skin? I would say that it doesn't, for a few reasons:
First, as I mentioned in another post, in some parts of Andalusia it seems that most people's family trees include gypsies and non-gypsies, so racism of this kind doesn't make much sense. Second, I don't know if most gypsies are actually dark skinned (e.g., Diego del Gastor, Joselero, Antonio Mairena, Melchor de Marchena, Tomás Pavón, the Sorderas, the Zambos, the Moneos...) Third, the meaning may be entirely metaphorical, as in the man not wanting the woman to have much social contact because it might change her feelings for him. If the letra literally referred to her skin color, it would be of very poor artistic quality, IMO, and I think it's more likely that the meaning is metaphorical.
So, returning to the underlying idea of this thread, due to cultural differences arising from the use of the language, some letras might be considered offensive by those of us who weren't born and raised in Spain.
A revolcarme a revolcarme en un capote que huele a carne
You never know what'll turn up when searching for some letras. Might not this letra be a double entendre? If I'm not mistaken, "capote" also means "condom." The double entendre still works if you substitute "sangre" for "carne." In fact it makes it more ambiguous and adds a frisson-- you laugh or turn away in disgust depending...
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
Greetings Fellow Flamencos.
I hope the sheer proliferation of "surprising" or "offensive" letras didn't upset you, Norman. For all the Flamenco stuff everyone talks about on this forum, it seems most of us have forgotten that most of these people led and lived what we westerners (and maybe even some Spaniards) would call "bad lives."
I have a CD containing Cante Jondo from singers who are doing time in prison in Spain for murder (by the way, that same prison holds a "cante jondo" contest every year and gives out prizes!!). There have also been many stories about Flamencos who have come over to the US and other places to perform and have been arrested for various infractions of the law. Sometimes we forget that as talented as these individuals are, they are, in fact, "human."
That being said, I was in a Bulerias De Jerez workshop this past fall, and as all of us guitar students were going over the chords to some letras the cantaor was belching out, this one popped out of nowhere (2nd Letra):
Porque quise divertirme Yo habia entra'ito en una casa mala Me presentan a una dama Frio como el marmol me quede Cuando vi que era mi hermana.
Roughly, the passage translates to the cantaor going to a whore house because he wanted to have fun, he was presented a girl, but his face turned to stone (or cold like stone) when the girl presented to him was his sister!!
You could not believe the shock on my face alternating between A,C, & B-flat chords during this letra and hearing this!! Everyone in the workshop started cracking up, but folks, again, this stuff is not Science-Fiction, most of these Flamencos have had "bad lives," and it at times manifests itself in the letras.
Something to think about the next time you hear one of these "wellsprings of creativity" coming from these amazing cantaors....
_____________________________
"Oh Gypsy woman you're a moor- a moor from the moorish district."
ORIGINAL: Sufimoor most of these Flamencos have had "bad lives," and it at times manifests itself in the letras.
"I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die" Did Jonny Cash actually do that ? I dont think so. Just because artists, from wherever, sing about something does not make it true for them. Careful with the stereotypes eh
X: as far as I know capote means condom in French, not Spanish.
Sufimoor: this seems to be a fandango letra. In the opera flamenca age, fandangos personales where the most popular style, and many had this kind of overly dramatic letras. Another example is the one posted above: Yo entre un dia en el manicomio...
Capote is specifically the bullfighters cape in Spanish. If it smells of meat then it a weird letra indeed. Either it smells of fresh beef OR it smells of your own flesh after being gored.
A simple letra I like a lot was from a solea I heard years ago by Carmen Linares
Ay Gitano, te quiero.... pero nunca, nunca hablamo'
Hey Gypsy, I love you.. But we never, never talk to each other.
Sorry Kate, your Johnny Cash example is completely wrong - Johnny Cash was singing that song in third person - anyone even remotely familiar with the song knows that immediately.
And since FLAMENCO FROM GRANADA is your signature, then you should very well know the history of the struggles and hardships that the Gypsies in Spain have been through, and yes, those struggles and hardships do at times manifest itself in the lyrics; this is why I used the phrase "at times" (towards the end of my post).
So my statements were NOT stereotypes, and it isn't necessary for me to use caution, eh? You simply need to familiarize yourself more with Flamenco's history - contrary to popular belief, it is not all "Happy-Happy Joy-Joy" Cante Chico with flowers, polka-dot skirts, and letras about sipping Sherry in Jerez...
But being FLAMENCO FROM GRANADA, you already knew all of this, right?
Until we meet again in the Flamenco Stratosphere.....
_____________________________
"Oh Gypsy woman you're a moor- a moor from the moorish district."
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
Sufimoor, explain to me how the sentence "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die" is in the third person. Do you even know what third person means? Matter o' fact, if you look at the lyrics, the word "he" doesn't appear once. Quite a third-person narrative that is.
I'd recommend you not passive-aggressively antagonize well-established members on this foro with only your fourth post here. Telling Kate (of all people) to "familiarize [herself] more with flamenco" is about the most hilarious thing I've read all day. And that includes today's brilliant XKCD comic about self-reference:
RE: "surprising" letras (in reply to NormanKliman)
rmj: I stand corrected. Thanks.
Kate: Your Johnny Cash quote makes me think: if we can have roc en español, why not bulerias in English? (OK, everyone else calm down and hold off on the brickbats and pitchforks-- it's just a blue sky notion).
Here's a letra from "Sam Hall" in your Johnny Cash vein that might work, because, Lord help me, I do see some burla in it that a good singer might be able bring out:
Well, I killed a man, 'tis said, so 'tis said Yeah, I shot him in the head Just to fill his mind with lead And I left him there for dead Damn his eyes, damn his eyes.
Ramparts, have you read or seen any interviews with Johnny Cash or others regarding Folsom Prison Blues (the song in question)? In many, many interviews, Johnny Cash admitted the song was not about anything that he had done, and that he sang the song from a storyteller's angle, that he was NOT singing the song about things he had done himself (i.e. "shooting the man in Reno just to watch him die"). That's why I said Kate was wrong.
Call me a passive-aggressive fourth time posting antagonizer if you'd like, but what does that have to do with the fact that Kate was in error? Your so-called "recommendation" was passive-aggressive in itself and is a classic case of an ad hominem argument, attacking the messenger instead of the message because you didn't like the message.
A fourth time poster on a Foro Flamenco forum could still tell the truth while an established, multi-poster on the same forum could lie through their teeth all day.
Now THAT's hillarious...
By the way: thanks for that XKCD comic. My opinion: it's garbage....
_____________________________
"Oh Gypsy woman you're a moor- a moor from the moorish district."
Printable Version
Manuel Vallejo recorded it around the same time as El Gloria. 
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