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Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
I had the same thought after hearing the audios. All the players are technically skilled and should only be judged on this by players with equal or a higher level.. Well,.. above a certain point, technics should not be judged.. They all have aire, there is no doubt,. different aire. That means the piece is played under different viewpoints. Some play more melodic and others more powerfull and others more dark. Its like judging on what you like more "left or right" or black or white. I think all the challengers are winners. But because we have prices,.. we need to find a winner.
So let us reduce the judging to a very crude overall rating of 10 points maximum. Just one criteria to bring us somehow in an order. Very subjective, but the only way. And dont be miserly! ;.)
You can comment on your scoring. But to the judges, please think individually. Dont orientate on the ratings of other judges. Just listen and give points how you think the players should be rated. And remember equal sqores are also fine.
I try to infor all the judges if they dont see my post.
Ok, you are the Boss of this challenge but i don't agree with some of the points you mentioned here.
I thought that we take Tomatito as preference and judge the Members comparing to him in all aspects (technique, Aire, Rythm, everything). Of course we could also have compared all members to the best member upload. In that case i would have written completely different comments and completely different scores. But i thought that in this advanced challenge things are going to be different.
However, if you say that this is not the way you wanted it, i can change mine or simply delete it.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Great job to all the players. I have a favorite but wonder what the judges will decide. Some really good playing for sure on a very dificult tune. Congrats to all.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
I'm really impressed by you guys! Wow! I think I can recognize at least two players. It will be really interesting to see who the players are though.
I'm not a judge, but I listened to all of them and tried giving scores to each one.. very difficult to pick only one winner, I have three personal favorites. The judges are in for a tough one.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to mrMagenta)
quote:
So let us reduce the judging to a very crude overall rating of 10 points maximum. Just one criteria to bring us somehow in an order. Very subjective, but the only way.
i agree with what you say but depending on how many judges u have, with that system u can end up with 2 or 3 people of the same score, it greatly improves the chances of a draw ..theres 7 entries and only 10 possible scores...do you wanna risk those ods ? in the other ones we had out of 30 and still had some scores too close for comfort (a bitt of a delema if u end up with 3 winners for one prize )
u can still score only on style if u want...but make it out of 30..gives you a litlle more room to accurateley place ..the ones that deserve to win still win and you dont risk headaiches at the end
30 the highest 20 average 1 lowest
and then u have the option of everything in between..gives u more room to deferenciate
anyway i am sure this is not a good time to have a discussion about this sorry i dont wanna interfear, i know how annoying that can be when theres alot going on, but figured i might save you a hedaiche at the end...do whatever you do but do it quic since the judging has started
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
I would prefer to stick with the old system. Some people may not be perfect in one of the 3 categories, but good in another one. It would be hard to do these circumstances justice it by using a system of 1-10. Yes judging is hard, because its a looooong piece, and you will have forgotten most of the previous track(s) when listening to the next. I will take notes when listening as much as possible, and compare certain hard-to-play sections against each other.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Wow, very nice everyone! I don't want to put any influence on judges but Starfruit and Grapes recordings are really great, really advanced level, so put them together (this would be a Grapefruit LOL :) ) and it this is exactly how this piece should sound.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
well, after reading Rons entry in the audio section, honestly i feel like an arrogant pr!ck...
i guess after so many years living in germany, i kind of imbibed this straight forward german attitude which is sometimes combined with lack of consideration for others feelings...... well, lets see what other judges will write .......but if all other entries will be like Rons, then best would be to simply ignore mine and and count the scores from others
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Hey don't be silly Arash! The idea is just to award points the way the playing affects YOU. Otherwise it's not a competition, but just an "every kid get's a prize" show.
I could equally be accused of being political and discreet.
But in all honesty I'm not.
I really am pretty damn overwhelmed by the quality of the entries!
So I have to depend on others of different ages and different experiences to perhaps be a bit more objectively discriminating than me, otherwise we will have a lot of folk in a tie for the first prize!
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
I am in work-induced flamenco hibernation mode at the moment, but I just had to jump in and congratulate everyone on their entries. There are a couple of stand-outs, but the overall level is extremely high. Wow!
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
congratulations everyone! really impressed by the high level of chops! and listening to this piece in the context of practicing and recording for this contest, that's a huge amount of sustained effort.
great job! i've already picked out my two favorites. at this skill level, its great to be able to choose based on aire, aesthetics and interpretation.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Thanks Ron and Flo for the little backup. I feel a little bit more assured now.
I also enjoyed all entries which were ALL at a very high level but decided to abstain from too much excitement (which i had) and mix this excitement with an objective rating and and be more critical, as there are also some valuable prices included.
Ok, maybe we shouldn't go too much in to specific details anymore as not to unintentionally influence other Judges before all entries are written.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Ok, maybe we shouldn't go too much in to specific details anymore as not to unintentionally influence other Judges before all entries are written.
yes i know good point...but its hard cause i want to discus it lol i dont know how some people managed to keep their mouth shut in other challenges till the judging was done
but i will also i removed that line that talks too much detail
how many more judges are we expecting ? who else is judging ? i need to know whos who allready
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread (in reply to Doitsujin)
Time to face the music. I've already made my apology to Doitsujin. I've got to say the entries are inspirational. I got through two pages at slow speed and just couldn't get any further. I'm humbled by what you have achieved. Absolutely stunning and literally back to the drawing board for me. Respect.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Because it gets too complicated, please let us stick to the "one category" system. 30 is the best rating 0 the lowest. Ron is right, 10 points would be to crude. So, 30 points maximum as also Florian nicely showed. Thats the last word to that subject. Sorry for the bad managing...
Arash already voted thats no problem, your maximum rating is 30 points. So you dont need to change anything. For the comparison to tomatito you did the right thing. The challenge is to mainly to play la ardila with the reference Tomatito. And minor changes in the composition are allowed but not own falsetas. So, go on with that rating you should also include technics, feeling and sense for rythm. Than combine the final opinion in the 30 points you can give.
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Is that what you mean with one Score System Doit ?
I meant one rating score for any criterias.. as summary. As we do now.
Hey Florian, the big fontsize is not meant to scream. I want that everybody finds this inbetween many posts of this thread.. I dont want to send so many PMs for anything.. Im lazy.. :./
quote:
Oh, and Doit...... one more request for editing my post or changing anything,,,, and i will give everyone total score of 5 !
Well,.. I think there is no changing allowed anymore. Its fine now. I mean the "method". I disagree completely with some ratings I saw so far..but..ok its personal taste... and different viewpoints... I think we need to rate the quality of the judges after that and include that standard error into the given points to solve this problem..
So, Judges, please listen twice before giving points...man... man.. man..
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin . I think we need to rate the quality of the judges after that and include that standard error into the given points to solve this problem..
So, Judges, please listen twice before giving points...man... man.. man..
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Doitsujin)
Thank you for rationalizing the judging - I have listened to all seven entries a couple of times already and decided to sleep on it some more to come up with my final scores due to the difficulty of the job.
I have not checked any of the judges results so I will post my score later tonight possibly tomorrow latest without group think.
I have identified the best imho but it is very difficult sorting out everyone afterwards. All the submittals are very good and respect to all of you!
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Im very sleepy ... have to go to bed.. That means Im in a critical condition.. and should not continue to write. But I do.. and I hope you can maybe help me out a bit.. In short... its becoming a hard job to be fair to anyone here. Where is the point to start to be strict and hard? Maybe I should give all my "host-power" to Ailsa before I do something worse. The challenge started just a second ago and I already bended rules for some participants not only once. The first entry is a wmv. I decided thats ok, because so player sended very early and it doesnt influence the playing. Another thing which really makes me sad and negative is that one of the favorite players used a slowed down loop which is a major disrespect to a rule but has been discussed more than once. Because its only a few bpm and the playing is really awesome we can ignore that I guess.......I would also be interested in seeing some videos after the rating if you know what I mean...But its not necessary because I belief in honor. So what should I do? What is with the other challengers? The same conditions to all...no? Which rules can be bended? I dont know what the right thing is to do. But I tell you something. I declare all entries as accepted in respect to the rules. There will be no disqualifications. And I loose no more words on that.
And the judging.. it made me wonder till now.... MAn,.. Im not made for challenges.. Im sorry for that. Honestly very very sorry. Maybe I should use the emergency break and dont enter the foro anymore before all is over (declaring the winner included). That also means Im going to skip any further challenge. Its not good for my health.. It really hits me hard. I just want to beware you from anymore stupid things I could write here. As the things I already wrote now. :./
Have a good night. And Im really sorry for being totally down and annoying you with this ****ty thoughts. Honestly sorry.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
Have a good night. And Im really sorry for being totally down and annoying you with this ****ty thoughts. Honestly sorry.
Doitsujin, you worrying me... the competition is unfolding handsomely. Seven talented musicians submitted sophisticated performances of a complex piece. Many, including me, have certainly felt inadequate and humbled while listening to those 7 wonders weaving notes with consummate dexterity and extraordinary artistry. This competition has made us all feel part of something truly grand. Thank you for your effort in bringing this to fruition and guiding the better musicians' callous egos into delivering this magnificent gifts.
Take it easy. You are a wonderful person and should be proud of this tremendous accomplishment.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Challenge, Advanced Thread - mor... (in reply to Arash)
Well, i guess we have to consider different points and some subconscious things which could be happening in your (and other Challengers) mind. And i think when thinking and talking about them, this could help to "cool down" things a little bit and see these things from another perspective than maybe what you feel right now:
1) Everyone (including you) put a lot of work in practicing this Piece since MONTHs. This automatically creates some kind of (fully understandable) expectation for more than just a Score and 2 or 3 Words comments, which however (and unfortunately) can't be fully complied in the Audio section.
2) Most of the Challangers are better guitar players than most of the Judges (at least, this is what i know from the foro history). This creates automatically some kind of anxious and insecure feeling about how they judge and if they really know what they are talking about. This is also fully understandable (from challengers point of view). But the decision is made from the beginning and consider that we don't have 7 Tomatitos judging you and the challengers. And there are also many factors included in the ratings. I mean Judges are not some kind of homogenious Flamenco-Robots. They have their preferances (sound, type of playing, and all other aspects of what makes an upload good or bad or whatever for them, and for them only) which could be totally different from yours.
3) Consider that your subjective feeling about the Level/Quality/etc. of the uploads is , well, subjective. You could be right, but also wrong (or 50/50). Yes, you could be also right in some aspects, but we will never find out what is 100% right or wrong. This is also the nature of such a "foro challenge". You can't compare it to , let say , a comment/score of a single flamenco teacher whom you know already for a long time and know what to expect from him
4) We all have an Ego. Some Egos are stronger and some weaker. And it is sometimes really hard to fight against it, even if the Ego is doing something wrong (objectively). Best way is to try to come out of your own mind and look at everything (including yourself) as if you were someone else (for example: a Judge in this case) - for a minute or two.
Finally, i would like to say that you don't need to feel bad, mentioning all these points. It is GOOD to talk about all these stuff, instead of bottle up something. And i fully understand your point of view. You did a great job with all this challenge stuff and organising. And i like your honest way of saying what you are thinking and what is in your mind.
Last but not least, as you mentioned, i don't think that this WMA issue is really important and influences anything. Regarding a tiny little bit slower version of one upload, i am not sure. For me it is also not that relevant (because the degree of the speed difference is so minor). But here i am not sure what to say.
Oh, and we still have more entries to come ...so still everything is possible
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also i removed that line that talks too much detail 
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