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[Poll]

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1 - 3 years

12% (4)

3 -5 years

0% (0)

5 - 7 years

0% (0)

7 - 9 years

0% (0)

9 - 11 years

3% (1)

Over 12 years

9% (3)

Theres no hope for me and I just do this for fun!

15% (5)

Im still trying to get there

60% (20)

Total Votes : 33

(last vote on : Jan. 11 2013 11:46:33)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 7:51:28

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

Too subjective a question. I'm happy with my progress but I'm not ready to accompany a singer or a dancer (or so I think) with my short five pieces. When I do that and understand the performance, then I'll claim to be a tocaor.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 8:33:20

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I think you should refine your voting system.....
1-3 years
3-6 years
6-10 years
10-15 years

..something like that. I don't think there's a huge deal of difference from playing 1 yeas to playing 2 years if you see what I mean...when I'd been playing for a year it was all still a bit of a blur for me and the same after 2 years. I guess I'm saying that a year is a very short time in learning flamenco guitar.

I've been playing about six years and I'm no where near where I want to be, but then that's what keeps me hungry to improve and learn more.

I often think on many occasions that I'd be happy if I could just play that piece at x speed etc. then once its achieved I want to be able to play this harder piece at whatever speed and so on and so on.....

Be interesting to hear what someone who's been playing thirty years or more would say about learning curves etc.

I remember hearing a quote from an old flamenco guitarist saying something like "the first thirty years were the hardest" anyone know who that was??

Actually...... although I voted "I'm still trying to get there" I am actually happy with my progress and compared to my house mates (for example) I'm ****ing brilliant at guitar!!! (they don't play)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 8:45:05

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Stu)

i interesting question ...

Well I dont mind telling you it takes about a week of not listening to any other flamenco and a botlle of wine ...thats how long it took me last time

just kidding, i am always still trying to get there, ALWAYS

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 9:26:15

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 9:40:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

but I have played with people that try Paco and Vicente falsetas and just butcher them

Well you are in the right amigo ..play what you play well..unles you really really love the Paco or Vicente falseta and it will give you pleasure to play it ..( not to show off that u play Paco or Vicente) or just jump from solo to solo..

there are many different opinions on the subject but personally i think people should work towards stuff they really love and gives them pleasure or inspires them to play (within reason..i am not talking beginners or super hard stuff)

but technique will have to improve anyway...weather you play stuff you love or stuff you can do...as long as you keep working at it. ..so it will be nice at the end of the unavoidable hard practice to end up with stuff you do love..

there are no written rules but i think for me atleast the golden rule is play stuff I enjoy playing...weather i can or cant do it (if i cant i work towards doing it or adjust it to fitt me for the time beeing until i am better at it...either way i play it)

generaly speaking one falseta is as hard as the other if you dont know it...but the more you practice it the eazyer it gets....( dont get me wrong there are falsetas that depend strictly on specific advanced skills eg. Paco's picado or some crazy Alzapua ...dont push yourself on those ...(unles u really really love it and just have to know it and get it) but there are some that dont require anymore technique than what you have now..just more concentration, thinking and planning)

but i think u are totaly right and wise in your decisions...me i am very undisciplined lol i love risks, i love doing a falseta for the first time at a gig not knowing if it will work or not, i love your heart pumping out of your chest with fear and i love the feeling if it does work, i love the dancers giving me a look because we hadent rehersed it and it just made the moment a litlle more fun and unpredictable...i got many back up plans if it goes wrong..i have perfected pretending that I didnt make a mistake

it will keep beeing over your head until you play it and try it...and it wont be after about 50 plays anyway...

I have seen Eliot Fisk make about 10 -20 mistakes at a concert and i have never seen anyone so into music and having so much fun on stage in my life..and because of that we were all having fun with him

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 9:53:48

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 11:18:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

There is a saying, spend 20 years accompanying baile, 20 years accompanying cante, and then, well, you can start to think about playing solo

Don't think anyone really follows that these days but there is some truth in it.
At this point though, I've only been playing Flamenco about 3 years, but I AM a Flamenco guitarist, just not a "good" one yet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 11:31:14

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 11:47:25

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I learned mostly EVERYTHING about Flamenco in my first year and played great stuff really well and even composed my own pretty sensational compositions, which was applauded by all my friends and their parents, who thought I was a "phenomeno".

I was amazed I had such a natural talent for this stuff!!

Over the second year, as I learned more and more about Flamenco, it slowly dawned upon me that I knew absolutely f*ck all about this music and was a joke to myself and others who knew about this stuff.

From there on, the more I learned, the less I knew.

Which still continues to this day.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 12:07:37

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

Who/What is a "flamenco guitarrist"?
How good is "good"?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 13:03:42

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Who/What is a "flamenco guitarrist"?
How good is "good"?

thats like the ultimate question ain it

like how black is black and how much blacker can it get ..or if the universe is infinite how big is that and whats behind it and whats behind whats behind it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 13:09:32

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

The moment you're satisfied with what you know, that's when you stop learning. I'm never good enough for myself.

I had someone tell me recently I should be so grateful to be able to play flamenco guitar "so well", and I replied it's too bad I can never just sit back and be happy with it, it's never good enough, I guess that's how I got to play "so well" in the first place...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 13:23:16

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

like how black is black and how much blacker can it get ..

A physics professor once asked a question into the auditorium... "how can you get a black surface even more dark? Answer: by cutting a hole into it."

But I dont remember the physics about it (topic was black holes). But yeah, black can actually get blacker.

In the end, imo all this talking about how good who plays etc., is not worth much. Play it or practice.

(hey that sounds good isnt it? just made it up...).
But seriously, i am happy when i can play half decent music. Its a struggle with yourself with every new falseta, or whatever you begin. Just have fun, comparing years is not helpfull imo. Its also a bit critical with feedback from people who dont know about flamenco. See my thread "Whom do you trust regarding your playing".

oh, Delatorre, i see you are new here? Would be nice to meet you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 13:26:48

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Just have fun, comparing years is not helpfull imo

ofcourse i agree..the years thing is deciving..i have students who started playing flamenco about 10 years before i started.....well one of them did...ALo has the same

there are a few older people in my city who have been beginners for 20 - 25 years

they been in the scene way before me or possibly even ALo..they love it cause they are always at all the concerts, festivals and get albums etc.. but they seem content to just practice once or twice a week i dont know..i cant understand the mentality, i dont do anything half heartedly...thats why i dont do much lol just sex and flamenco

( and i am exagerating the flamenco part...)

its not how long is what you do and how much time u spend on it..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 13:36:47

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I am still trying to get there

but it seams like

there is no hope for me so i will just keep doing this for fun

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 14:01:01

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

The problem is, what is "Good"?

Im sure my idea of "good" is different from your idea of "Good".

Music is art, and art is completely subjective. You cant just go on isolated
technical skills.
Because they mean nothing without some sort of special, musical, intangables that
are extremely hard to pinpoint, explain, teach, or practice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 17:43:53

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

To me Paco de Lucia sounds "good".

I guess it's time for me to just give up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 18:24:50

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

thats sure is a difficult questio

quote:

GuitarVlog

n after playing for 4 years i was steaching people who had been playing 20, yet it want there focus,

i had also read an artical in my first year of playing its 20 years to become a serious beginner!!! , but no matter is the love of art which has got most all all of us on the forum, people here me play they say man you can play , but can i yes ??? well yeah but at what level, .

today i cant play ****!!! yet i have played for john williams he said i have something@!@@@

but flamenco i cant bloody play in compas.

but its passion, so that over rides being good or anything,,,,,,,beginner advanced are only lables.......bob dylan is a fine guitarist / singer , but a jazz singer /guitarist may say......me hes a beginner??

now im lost hehe ole!@! welcome to flamenco a lifetime investment of the soul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2009 21:26:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

To me Paco de Lucia sounds "good".

Yeah, but he's MORE than good.

IMO there is Flamenco guitar and Virtuoso Flamenco guitar.

I hear many guitarists on Andalucia TV and Radio who are not known outside Spain or maybe even outside their own region who are "good" in that they have a reliable basic technique with maybe a few flashes of little short impressive runs here and there to spice it up a bit and who have the knowledge and experience to provide good basic and solid accompaniment for a singer/dancer in their local peñas and fiestas.

Some of them may only be semi-pro too, having another day job.

(Diego del Morao as a teenager I believe was studying full-time for a Business Administration degree at college while playing in local Jerez venues)

"good" IMO = "competent" and "reliable"....that is to say, a proper time-served Tradesman, like a "good" electrician or a "good" plumber and not a "cowboy" or a "chancer".

However, you can get a "good" apprentice or a "good" student too, who still need to continue on that path for a bit longer to become a fully rounded Journeyman.

That's my thoughts anyway.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 1:37:39

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I think the only person to get good in 1-3 years was the guy from that book DUENDE

the story is he took lessons for 2 years before he went to Spain, and then used the stories the teacher told him during the lessons in the book.... the teacher tried to sue him for stealing his lifestory!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 4:52:27

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I gave a vote for 10 years and just after realized that the question was how long did it take for YOU to become good.

I'm not that good and have been playing only for couple of years so I really cannot say, but I read it somewhere that 10 years of doing something intensively will do the trick.
six hours of practicing every day should be enough to give the basic techniques for music if one want to be established player.

For me this is a long journey and in the moment im quite in peace with my self and my playing, but does it make me a good player, I dont think so. Better to enjoy the music and playing flamenco than stress and worry about beeing good. Its more healthy that way

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 5:28:05

jonc

Posts: 33
Joined: Oct. 24 2008
From: New England, USia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I've been playing less than three years with extended breaks during winters and restricted practice time in the summers, but I feel good about where I am with he instrument.

The actual flamenco aspect is lacking, and hopefully always will feel that way. What I mean to say is that, since I'm approaching a tradition from the outside, I'm especially wary of declaring my own inclusiveness in the culture. I have no dancers or singers to accompany, or cajon players or really anyone else at all. When I play, I like to be outside on a nice day, in public, playing the songs that I love. Sometimes I play them as rigidly in compas as I'm able, other times I take my own time and see what happens without the structure.

People seem to say a lot that when I'm playing they want to drift off to sleep! For myself, I want to be an accomplished _flamenco_ player, but right now, for others, in this beautiful season in New England, I only want to help people to relax and enjoy these songs that I love.

Tomorrow night I have a paying gig -- mood music for a banquet setting. This is my first one, and I feel no pressure or stress about it. Perhaps if there were going to be a bunch of flamencos there waiting to criticize my compas or whatnot I'd be nervous, but for my audience I'd say that I'm good, and for myself, knowing that I dedicate so many hours a day to refining my ability to express what I feel on this wonderful instrument, I'm okay!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 6:17:11

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to jonc)

so good luck for your gig jonc!

you seem to feel confortable with your instrument - for me it is an important criteria while speaking 'bout being "good" i'm not that self-confident that's why i avoid gigs. OK i'm between beginner / intermediate, but that's not the main problem... i practice solea these days (payo humberto's you tube videos are really a great inpiration!) and i think it's on a good way, but i don't have the same sound everyday, if i would have a gig on a "bad" day i would feel stressed and being cramped as soon i'd notice little mistakes... another problem is: some days i'm good in solea but the farruca doesn't work, sometimes the tango is nice but the taranta has no soul, my repertoire is small so i'd have to play all palos i know, but it's hard to play one palo after another in the same quality or with good groove. My definition of "good" would be playing 8-10 different palos (easy variations or some harder) with a good groove/sound

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 6:39:41

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

For me this is a long journey and in the moment im quite in peace with my self and my playing, but does it make me a good player, I dont think so. Better to enjoy the music and playing flamenco than stress and worry about beeing good. Its more healthy that way

thats the way i feel this is it , its about life and if your happy and enjoy thats it ,

but aint we all lucky we can play the guitar and enjoy the amazing music ,

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 7:35:21

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Over the second year, as I learned more and more about Flamenco, it slowly dawned upon me that I knew absolutely f*ck all about this music and was a joke to myself and others who knew about this stuff.

compared to a lot of people, you were a really, really fast learner Ron!

it took me a lot longer, and a lot of people never seem to realise it.... they never really learn "more and more".... i guess 'cos they think they know it all already....

quote:

From there on, the more I learned, the less I knew.

Which still continues to this day.

yup, olé to that, the more i learn, the more i realise there is to learn.... fortunately i like learning stuff!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 14:07:07

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

I'm confused. Is this from the time we started playing guitar or from the time we started playing flamenco? I'd been playing guitar for about 19 years before getting into flamenco. I've been playing country, jazz, rockabilly, funk, latin, metal, etc. (as well as piano, trumpet, drums, and bass), so I know my way around the instrument a fair deal giving me a head start from someone learning guitar AND flamenco from the start. Granted, flamenco is very different from the styles I listed, with a big learning curve getting all the new techniques down, but I think I've been learning at quite an accelerated rate.

Did all you guys start learning flamenco the same time you learned the basics?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 14:25:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

Some folks are happy where they are at, even though they might not have improved much since they started. I would say for the folks that keep trying to get better and study or learn more about the art, always digging deeper, it takes about 10 years to feel accomplished.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 14:35:18

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to polishcomedy)

quote:

Did all you guys start learning flamenco the same time you learned the basics?

yeah i did, acctualy i was learning basic chords, compas, basic technique at the same time i was learning to accompany dancers ( maybe about 5 months after, i cant remember anymore) , i remember knowing what i needed to do for dancers but my hand just not wanting to work with me, cramping up or mesing up simple chord changes lol, id go home upset and embarrased and practice it all night just so i wouldnt be humiliated again in front of the dancers and teacher the next day ...still wouldnt take it any other way

its good to go in ignorant cause if you know you might spend a life time not feeling ready or wordy or good enough or daring enough and never do anything with it, spend a lifetime in your bedroom by yourself practicing trying to feel ready

but if you dont know any better u just do it

unintentional bliss ignorance really is a gift

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2009 14:35:27

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: How long did it take for you to ... (in reply to Guest)

the funny thing is , or sad, is that even my problems as a player in my first year still haunt me, rhythm is my drawback, i really feel it hard to feel the pulse, i go off in dream land as i play,

i have to play drums more !!!! im the same as polishcomedy man, funk /etc, flamenco is real cool , i noticed also that there has been an impromentment in my picado, in comparison to classical there is a lot more picado and faster, so we are like forced to learn them, in classical guitar only a few works have long extended picado.
]
i always use to love the spanish impressionistic piece, all the sound of phrgian harmony , so he we are learning flamenco in my 30s