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RE: 2s in bulerias examples
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)
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My God! This discussion has run to 11 pages and I have the feeling it's still not done with. (BTW it was Jon who mentioned Tomatito keeping time in 2's....) It's a healthy discussion though, so long as folk don't lose the rag.... I remember reading a book on how International Scientific Standards came about (like the Volt, the Ohm, and the Ampere). The writer said, you can get 30 top Scientists in a room and have them discuss the latest, groundbreaking ideas, and they will all generally be in accord. But ask them to discuss, something very simple and fundamental....and you've got a major fight on your hands LOL! So I guess the same wisdom still applies. The main thing is. Folk who post on this forum, do so in order to generously share their knowledge with others, or ask questions. So let's all "keep the heid" (head) and not let it get into an issue of one's entrenched values against anothers. In the British Parliament, you are forced to address the other person as "The Honorable Member", even though you may hate their guts or their ideas LOL! There's a lot to be said for that IMO. By the way, I just sprained my left wrist today, lifting something awkwardly. Everything's OK except for any rotational moves and then it's agony. Haven't tried out the guitar yet...I think I'll leave it till Sunday and we'll see. Grrrr! cheers Ron
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Date Jul. 7 2004 20:08:13
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Bulerias is shown in the family of terinary rhythms (threes), not binary (twos). One last try Andy, but don't get ruffled, it's only music ... Faustino is distinguishing, as all analysts distinguish, myself included, between the tangos-tientos-farruca-zambra family, and all the rest. That does not mean that the compás of siguiriya is the same as verdiales, so this must be taken in context. He could have elaborated that the measure of the binary family is 2 (or 4) twos, while bulerías is 3 (or 6) twos. A simple "one and two" does not make a compás of tangos any more than it does of bulerías. Remember, the twos that flow through all bulerías *never* displace, and *always* enhance every other type of pulse...the only conflict that's created is the controlled syncopation of the rhythm. Estela 'Zata'
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Date Jul. 8 2004 12:13:57
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Ron, check you Faustino Nunez "Understanding Flamenco." Bulerias is shown in the family of terinary rhythms (threes), not binary (twos). I totally agree Andy. And I also agree that often the accented beats in Bulerias are the popular 3, 6, 8, 10, 12 3, 7,8, 10, 12 plus the "al golpe" accents etc, etc For some reason, when you hear Bulerias played to a Flamenco audience, you can hear the audience's feet stomping away in 2's. Now, I thought this was odd. I tried it myself, but found it awkward to "not" tap on the 3 or maybe the 7 depending on what I was trying to play. As Estela said..my foot was really following my falsetas. So if my falseta was slightly "out" then my foot would follow and be slightly "out" as well. So my foot was an unreliable metronome. After reading Estela's original post, I remembered Paco Peña playing Bulerias, with his foot tapping in 2's. (He was tapping toe-heel-toe-heel which made a nice accompaniment also.) I then saw several other Jerez guitarists do the same. (not "toe-heel" stuff, but just gently toe tapping every second beat). So I reckoned this might be something worth investigating. I know everyone says PdL taps 1,2 - 4,5 etc But he does that loudly, I believe as an accompaniment and not as a time keeping mechanism. Some of the Jerez guitarists I've heard may not have a fantastic technique, however they sometimes play falsetas that meander all over the place and it's simply not possible to follow them trying to count 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. You end up with a headache. They'll sometimes play a few compases of 12, then slip an 18 count phrase in, then back to 12, then "square it up" with an extra 6 at the end. I really can't believe they are doing mathematical gymnastics on the fly. They've got to be using another method. As I said before, I have a feeling they are internally counting 2 sets of three "2's". Which has the advantage of being easy to do and also providing a stable metronomic beat which frees their brain up to explore some very exotic falsetas on the guitar. I don't know if this is true or not, but I certainly know that this counting 3,6,8,10,12 isn't working for me, except on the falsetas which follow that course. cheers Ron
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Date Jul. 8 2004 12:25:53
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hey Ron, this has got me thinking. I can't wait to have a play around with flamenco master, program in a soft accent on 12, 2, 4 etc and see how that feels alongside the different main palmas patterns. This has some interesting possibilities. For complex falsetas I've always used the 12, 3,6,8 10 default on FM because its the pattern I'm most familiar with. The trouble is, when learning something with weird timing (eg Tomatito again), obviously I have to slow FM right down to a sensible practice speed, but the main problem then is that the accents are too far apart to be much use in timing the thing. Lining up against, and playing with, a regular two seems a much simpler solution. As I said before, I tend to tap my foot in twos anyway when I'm playing, but didn't think of trying to learn tricky stuff against twos in the first place. Jon
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Date Jul. 8 2004 12:59:48
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Do you, yourself, hear twos when the the palmeros are clapping and the guitarist is tapping his foot por al golpe ( -XX-XX-XX-XX ) as someone noted on Paco de Lucia bulerias of the 1960s-1980s? Well, they don't audibly leap out at you from the loudspeakers. I suppose now, I can internally hear 2's. But that's not as a casual listener, but as somebody who is trying to get to grips with Bulerias and make sense of how to play it on guitar. So this 2's issue for me is entirely pragmatic. I want to improve my timing and control within Bulerias, especially in those weird Jerez falsetas I mentioned. I'm just at the very beginning of making some sense out of them now. When I was at school, our Mechanics teacher said "If a shaft rotates at 1 revolution per second, then how long does it take to cover half a revolution?" "Half a second", we all replied. "Wrong!", he said..." Due to uneven friction, the shaft could cover half a revolution in 0.55 of a second and the remaining half in 0.45 of a second, but you would still read 1 revolution per second". This is the effect I think can happen when internally counting 3,6,8,10,12. Each 12 may seem to work out, or even each 6. But it's what's going on inbetween that may be shaky. That's why I think the 2's counting method has advantages, especially in dealing with those weird, meandering falsetas. Doesn't make it a piece of cake though... It's still difficult, but I think persevering with this may bear fruit over the next few months. cheers Ron
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Date Jul. 8 2004 13:32:35
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Escribano
Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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12 bar blues and counting (in reply to Escribano)
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Does this help? Blues keeps a 4/4 tempo but tells a 12-bar story. quote:
In this lesson we will be exploring blues piano or more specifically the 12 bar blues progression for piano. We will be working in 4/4 time which means that each "bar" or "measure" will have 4 beats. This gives the 12 bar blues progression a total of 48 beats (12 X 4 = 48). Briefly, so as not to get confusing, a beat for our purposes is one tap of the foot. This would give you 4 foot taps for each bar or measure. It goes like this...1,2,3,4 (one bar or measure), 1,2,3,4 (our second bar or measure), 1,2,3,4 (third bar or measure), etc. for 12 bars. Notice we start over after 4 beats. We do not count 1,2,3,4...5,6,7,8, we only give each bar or measure 4 beats or foot taps.
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Date Jul. 8 2004 18:47:47
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