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Interesting conversation about Tendovaginitis and EL Viejin today
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: Interesting conversation i had a... (in reply to Florian)
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btw..i just did some searching on the web to try and become a litlle more familliar with tendovaginitis...that was probably a mistake cause now i am worried 
It seems like a very common thing for guitarists (the more i look in google the more i learn that many many guitarsits have it) and we are at a pretty high risk since the practice is so demanding..if anyone has anymore info, advice etc...please share..i dont know how i would handle it if i couldnt play guitar....and u always adapt this...."it wont happen to me" mentality
I never took it seriously before but as this guy says...by the time you do its far advanced...so now i would like to be atleast a litlle more educated..
is there things one can do...exercises to assure that they dont get this ?...i dont really like the idea of practicing less...i like the option of practicing as much as i like if possible.
Ron you have been playing for a long time...feel any discomfort ? how much do you practice on the average ? do u do special exercises ? anyone else ?
Since classical guitar is more covered from all aspects, organised and studied in colleges is there theories they teach about this kind of stuff ?
quote:
What Happens, When People Have Tendovaginitis or Other Finger Disorders?
Tendons are located at the ends of muscles, where they are bunched together for strength and hardness. When the sheaths that enclose the tendons are swollen with extreme friction, they become inflamed and the end result is "tendovaginitis".
Inflamation will cause pain and eventually the affected area will grow thick by swelling. Movements will become difficult, sometimes a sudden strech of the affected area could result in a particular popping sound made by the affected tendons.
Overuse of the muscles over a long period could also result in similar afflictions .
There are various conditions in "tendovaginitis". The finger motor problems among string-instument players can therefore be categorized under the term of "Overuse syndrom".
The Easy Cases
Finger problems associated with pain are generally caused by sudden overuse. Such cases are relatively easy to be cured by resting properly and by an appropriate therapy.
The Aggravated Cases
If a player puts the strain on their fingers by practicing just short of causing an acute inflammation, the muscle used by those movements tires and stiffens(from too much using the lactic acid accumulating inside) much like in some occupational disorders. The muscle loses suppleness and shrinks(atropmies) -----this stage is generally called"stiffening tendon".
This first single stiffness will most likely cause another one and tend to develop into the aggravated case, where the blood circulation is disturbed and the patient feels the languidness in the arm. In the prolonged cases, the stiffness could be also seen and felt in the neck and the shoulders .
This could eventually cause a motor disturbance. A player himself quite often does not realize what is going on. He can not even understand why he is unable to play properly. He just wonders if it is because of lack of practice or he is suffering a finger disorder caused by too much practicing. So he goes on until the problem becomes really serious.
For example, a finger curling in or springing out without pain should be considered quite serious. Those cases should be taken care of properly, thoroughly and most of all patiently.
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Date Feb. 4 2009 8:52:17
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
Is there anything one can do to slow it way way down ? besides playing less ? i hate that option...if thats my only option might as well quit cause it would be very very fustrating
Yeah, if you're a professional musician, why not treat your wrists and fingers the way professional atheletes would treat the body parts that receive the most abuse?
After intense practice or sessions, ice them.
Massage and stretch your fingers and wrists.
Warm up, warm down.
Make sure that you work out the rest of your arms too... helps blood flow, prevents over develpment in one area from causing complications...
Do general light exercises with your hands to work out that lactic acid, or prevent build up, if they feel achy or stiff. Don't practice or play hard if you can aovid it when they feel this way. (Sometimes light exercise is the best way to relieve stiffness.)
Exercising to the point of discomfort can build strength, but continuing past that point causes injury. If it hurts even a little, you've done too much.
Your hands only have two muscles, niether of which have much to do with guitar technique, your fingers are controlled by tendons and ligaments, which are controlled by muscles in your wrists/forearms. Tendons and ligaments don't devolop as quickly as muscles do, so what feels like a "good burn" in your muscles when you're weight lifting is a bad burn when it's your tendons.
I'm not a doctor or a trainer, but prevention, recognition and treatment of (repetitive) stress injuries is a part of my usual job.
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Date Feb. 4 2009 14:25:29
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
Is there anything one can do to slow it way way down ? besides playing less ? i hate that option...if thats my only option might as well quit cause it would be very very fustrating
Cutting down on playing time could definitely be frustrating, but if it could possibly extend your ability to play well over the long term then it could be a good thing and ultimately even a necessary one. If you had to choose between playing eight hours a day for he next ten years before your hands give out, or four hours a day for the next twenty years, which would you pick? That’s a very inexact and totally hypothetical example, but I think the point is the same. I think as all of us get older we’re gonna have to spend more and more time working out the balance what we do to achieve out short-term goals with what we need to do to preserve our abilities to keep playing long-term, and that’ll undoubtedly mean making some choices we don’t like. And if you play professionally and don’t really have the luxury of choosing your own playing schedule, then that makes it even harder. I’d be curious to hear what some of the more seasoned players around here have to say about all this.
I’ve got an old preexisting, non-guitar, thumb injury that cuts into my playing time. I rarely get more than ninety minutes to two hours before I reach a point where my left hand basically calls it quits, and where trying to push past that point would only make things worse. What’s particularly frustrating is that the left hand typically gives out just as the right hand has gotten fully warmed up and ready to go. 
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Date Feb. 4 2009 15:22:07
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Guest)
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El Culto is also known as the Church of Filadelfia.
"Since 1952, unprecedented religious enthusiasm has swept through Rom communities. The Light and Life evangelical Gypsy pentecostal movement claims 8,000 members in Britain and 150,000 in France, where there are 500 Rom preachers, 60 places of worship and a Rom Bible school. Thirty per cent of all Spanish Gypsies have become 'alleluyas', members of a similarly charismatic pentecostal form of Christianity, dubbed by Spanish Romanies the Church of Philadelphia."
Its an evangelical church which as you can see from the quote above has become increasingly popular among the Gypsies of Spain. There are more than one thousand of these churches in Spain, with almost one hundred in Madrid alone.
Some forbid their followers to play flamenco, but not all. It may even be a an individual choice to dedicate themselves to God instead of flamenco. I actually went to the Culto last week in Santa Fé with a friend who is a professional flamenco singer who would never give up flamenco. I thought I would hate it, not being very keen on church in general, but it was fascinating. We were invited to hear the band as we are going to record them next week.
I have never been in such a noisy church, the music was super loud and went on throughout the whole service. Everyone spoke at once, children ran in and out playing. People came and left at will. It was so Gitano, and so happy compared to the Catholic Church. The pastor spoke in the style of an American preacher, testifying and praising. The hall was packed and had no icons just a simple protestant cross. The preaching focussed on freedom of spirit and breaking chains and not being imprisoned. It is very popular amongst former prisoners and addicts for the help and support that is offered.
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Emilio Maya Temple
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Date Feb. 5 2009 12:44:39
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to henrym3483)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henrym3483
i think many people reject the flamenco lifestyle, ie the cocaine drinking etc moreso than the music.
I think this is spot on. Almost all the people I know who have turned to the Culto had addiction problems and one of the first rules of dealing with an addiciton is to get away from the lifestyle that led you there.
Also when we read the word Culto, we think of a Cult whereas it actually means worship. And yes Florian I was a bit enchanted, as a church goes it was informal, more like a celebration and it felt genuine. I know if given a choice between the Catholic Church, Scientology or Opus Dei, where I would rather go ! But I had to laugh that you said you would only rescue me after the group challenge !! Got your priorities straight there LOL
After the service everyone came up and greeted us, which is most unusual in a Gypsy community, such as the one in Santa Fé. One of the elder Gitanas took my hand and said if I ever needed anything that she was there every day and I could come to her. That has never happened to me in any other Church, and I have been dragged to quite a few. I was really moved.
Anyway as they say " Allaluyah allaluyah cada una a lo suya " 
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Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
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Date Feb. 6 2009 1:53:03
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