Palmas Exercises

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Palmas Exercises

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Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

Palmas Exercises

I'm cleaning out my PC, organising, in order to get all my procrastination out of the way so I can get down to work on "important stuff" and I came across this thread that I had saved.

Which made me think of something quite brilliant (well, all the things I think are brilliant, but this one struck me as something I should do something about

), we need some tutorials or exercises to learn palmas. I really haven't seen much information on learning palmas, and the one video I did find, was essentially too advanced from the beginning of the DVD.

I know we've got some guitarists kicking around... a couple dancers (or ex-dancers who have converted to the church of the guitar)... I don't know if we have an singers, but among these people, there must be some who have learnt some palmas and who can give some basic lessons.

There is a website selling a compás clock metronome, which I haven't tried, but I consult their site sometimes to look at their explanations of the different compases. If you look at the site, and their explanation of the soleares rhythm, they give and example of the compás basico, one version for cante, where the palmas are done on the off beats in countertime (contratiempos), and another where it's in double time.

I've also seen (I think), elsewhere, where the palmeros include a foot clomp too (marcan con el pie).

If anyone has been taught these things, could they maybe give us a little lesson on these different examples?

I'd really like to understand this all, beyond the little I've learnt for guitar, and I'll wager that I'm not alone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 10:44:52

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

It takes a surprising amount of time and practice to get good at palmas. Newcomers to flamenco often make the mistake of thinking that palmas demands only indiscriminate enthusiasm but it’s actually more complex than it first looks and requires considerable knowledge of the rhythm if it is to be performed well.

I learned in the "san miguel school of palmas" that is to say 9 years of drinking san miguel in flamenco bars and you pick it up by osmosis. Its something that is hard to learn if you are not around other people who know palmas. There are specific patterns to pick up in the contratiempo and it would be easier to do with audio uploads rather than trying to count beats and half beats.

You cant count contratiempo...you have to feel it. It took me years to get natural.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 11:10:28

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Pimientito)

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but dancers, for example, can't spend years and thousands of dollars on drinking to learn it that way, so someone, somewhere must have tips, tricks, or something resembling a methodology, que no?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 11:14:45

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

Ok, I guessed a reply like that was coming. I'll try to be more helpful. I don't think its possible to learn palmas from a book. The Spanish learn simply by being in environments where they hear it all the time...same as learning a language. There are specific patterns in the off beats that you get used to listening to and copying. If you cant hear and feel these variations I am pretty sure that you cant learn them (but i might be wrong)

Now one can write them down for analaysis after learning them and say something like " a typical buleria palmas is 12 consecutive beats starting on 12 accented on 12, 3, 7, 8 and 10 with contratiempo on beats 1+, 7+, 8+ and 9+. Beat 11 is omitted on subsequent compas. Variations will omit beat 12 allowing a contra of 1,1+, 2, 3 to accent the start of each compas. Final variations will apply contra tiempo to each half beat from 12 to 10 in each compas"

You are going to have a stroke working out compas this way

My suggestion is learn it aurally like the Spanish by
1. Finding someone to practise palmas with.
2. Attending a local dance school and practice compas with the dancers.
3. Some of us could upload palmas variations to practice with at home.
(this would be a seriously useful resource )

BTW- I met a lot of dancers who CANT do compas. They know the on beats but dont know the variations and its simply due to lack of practice. I get to practice palmas several hours a week just by going to some local bars.

EDIT - Just checked the thread you posted. Its exactly what I was saying. Its much easier to write about palmas if you can already do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 11:48:54

Stu

Posts: 2547
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

3. Some of us could upload palmas variations to practice with at home.
(this would be a seriously useful resource )

this would be fantastic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 12:41:27

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Ok, I guessed a reply like that was coming. I'll try to be more helpful. I don't think its possible to learn palmas from a book.

Unlike a book, this forum is interactive. I can say "I don't get it" to a book and it has a very limited number of responses. However, in the forum, we can reflect back what we think we're reading and get feedback if we're understanding correctly.

quote:

The Spanish learn simply by being in environments where they hear it all the time...same as learning a language. There are specific patterns in the off beats that you get used to listening to and copying. If you cant hear and feel these variations I am pretty sure that you cant learn them (but i might be wrong)

Yes, environment is a huge advantage. But here's an anecdote/analogy for you:

I spent a month in China. For the first 2.5 weeks, I hated it. It was the first time my little talent for languages had failed me. One day while I was out wandering around, I went into a bookstore and found some books on learning Chinese. I bought a few, but there was one with audio, that right at the beginning, explained the 5 tones, in a way that I could suddenly clearly "hear" the difference between them. See, the reason why I couldn't hear them, is because I had no clue what to listen for.

With the cultural/social diversity available on the forum, I think that between us, we could find ways to work it out.

quote:

Now one can write them down for analaysis after learning them and say something like " a typical buleria palmas is 12 consecutive beats starting on 12 accented on 12, 3, 7, 8 and 10 with contratiempo on beats 1+, 7+, 8+ and 9+. Beat 11 is omitted on subsequent compas. Variations will omit beat 12 allowing a contra of 1,1+, 2, 3 to accent the start of each compas. Final variations will apply contra tiempo to each half beat from 12 to 10 in each compas"

You are going to have a stroke working out compas this way

Certainly, however, there's already a fair bit of analysis available, here in the forum, and elsewhere (see my links thread in the Resources sub-forum). Which brings me back to my original phrasing... if people with experience can give us some exercises, to practise, we have a more practical approach.
At the very least, just knowing what palmeros do, is very informative.

quote:

My suggestion is learn it aurally like the Spanish by
1. Finding someone to practise palmas with.
2. Attending a local dance school and practice compas with the dancers.
3. Some of us could upload palmas variations to practice with at home.
(this would be a seriously useful resource )

BTW- I met a lot of dancers who CANT do compas. They know the on beats but dont know the variations and its simply due to lack of practice. I get to practice palmas several hours a week just by going to some local bars.

EDIT - Just checked the thread you posted. Its exactly what I was saying. Its much easier to write about palmas if you can already do it.

1. Some people don't have local people, but they have the foro.

2. There are some people who don't have access to schools or teachers. For them this foro has been a Godsend, why not make it better?

3. Now you're cooking with gas!

RE: your BTW, those dancers could benefit from the foro, should we ever get this thread off the ground and get them to visit (we do need more dancers, maybe you should print out some cheap business cards for us and give them out to the prettiest girls you meet

or at least the ones who ar friendly and helpful). I'm glad that a) you have so much time to go to bars, and b) that you get to do it in flamenco bars. But I kind of hate you for it too.
Luv,
eX

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 13:01:03

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Stu)

I posted this Masterclass in Solea Compás a while back in resources.

It also shows how the foot golpe fits in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 13:01:29

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Kate)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate

I posted this Masterclass in Solea Compás a while back in resources.

It also shows how the foot golpe fits in.

Oh Kate, if you weren't thousands of miles away, I'd be making your man jealous.

Thanks for this!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 13:03:33

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

here's some stuff i copied from a book for bulerias.

nothing too exciting but might be helpful for competitors in the challenge.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 13:28:31

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

Ricardo's post and upload pretty much spell it out (can't believe there were only two replies from the same person). Like Pimientito is saying, you're better off just getting a feel for it, although you really do have to see it to get the idea. But if you must think, here's one way to feel contras:

If you think of it as ta-ka-ta-ka-ta-ka(etc.),

being

12-and-1-and-2-and(etc.)

and do a foot stomp on the even-numbered beats, it comes out like

ta-ka, -ka-ta-ka(etc.)

I wouldn't recommend starting with this, though. You have to get used to the different ways of doing straight palmas first.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 14:12:33

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

If anyone has been taught these things, could they maybe give us ... different examples?

OK. Just for you - once again, here's the lovely Juan Antonio Perez (Fuengirola) teaching a simple bulerias por fiesta to a group of (mainly) gypsies. Try clapping along.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 14:59:21

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

They say a picture says a thousand words. In this case an audio upload is worth a thousand words. A page of forum text can be explained with one upload and you will get it. I seem to recall an eastern philosophy on learning.

"What I read I understand,
What I see I remember,
What I do,I know"

I'll get round to some uploads on the weekend. This is going to be far more useful than pages of explanation. i can understand your frustration but i still maintain without hearing and copying the contra variations, (like your chinese audio CDs) its nearly impossible to work out by verbal instruction.

quote:

I'm glad that a) you have so much time to go to bars, and b) that you get to do it in flamenco bars. But I kind of hate you for it too.

PS. I know you are being humorous but every other business is a bar here . There are over 2000 in Granada alone. Going out and eating out is an everyday norm and people dont tend to stay at home most nights. Spaniards don't eat or socialise in malls but in the miriad bars that frequent every street.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 17:23:07

Wannabee

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

Perhaps some of these would be helpful....or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 19:57:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Exitao)

Step one.
Get a metronome, set to a relaxed 115 bpm. Tap your foot to that. Now clap 2x per click, both claps the same volume. Clap loud enough and consistent enough that the click disappears....gone, forever you can't hear it. When you can do that without ever falling off the click, you are ready for step two.

But it will probably be awhile.

Step two.

repeat step one, but accent the clap between the clicks. Make it significantly louder than the clap on the click. Again, do this without falling off the click EVER. Don't stop practicing this until you can honestly and truely never hear that click sneak in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 23:35:20

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to val)

Val that was great - love those moves. Simple but so clean. Fantastic. Am gonna watch it again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 23:39:18

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Palmas Exercises (in reply to Wannabee)

Hey Wannabee, I'm assuming you put palmas in the search function - amazing what a variety of stuff that comes up with!

The 4th one from sofiaconduende was different - I hadn't heard it done like that before.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 23:53:47