Guitar help

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Guitar help

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

SantiagoFlamenco

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2009

Guitar help

Hello Im a newbie playing for about 2 years and looking for a good flamenco guitar. I did search on the forum but could not find any information about this guitar on eBay. I notice they sell them on other guitar sites for about $5000 which is high. Is this a good guitar and for the price/quality?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p2773.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D40%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D54&item=290292355210&category=621&viewitem=&salenotsupported

If anyone have information about this model Carillo negra it would nice to know. Its a Paco de Lucia model and good price. I like rosewood better than cypress but Im new so I don't know what is better. There is also a Conde for $4800 that I think is nice but too expensive for me.

thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 7:52:07

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

If you buy a high-class and high-priced guitar I would strongly want you to check the guitar out personally. And you should compare directly several guitars. Also, high-class guitars with famous names like Conde Hermanos, or Reyes are often very bad and not worth the money.
Dont buy a guitar on ebay.

I really think, if you wanna spend 5000Euros, a ticket to spain to test many guitars personally should be included!

Be very careful. And you have to trust your own feeling. Everybody prefers different guitars and settings. Also a professional player cant tell waht is the best for you. Take care! Its a lot of money.

EDIT: I owned a vincente Carillo guitar. Originally it was a present from Ramon de Algecrias. It didnt fit me at all and Im very happy that I managed to sell it.... Carillo Guitars are very heavy and they have very bold necks. It can be hard to play it with the bold neck.
Well, I owned a Paco de Lucia negra. It was not very loud. I wasnt able to play relaxed in bars. I allways had to hit the **** out of it to just hear it by myself. There are of course also very good Paco guitars and it depends on who plays the guitars but I wouldnt buy again a Carillo guitar... I like blancas more because I have light hands and play with less force.

My advice to the Paco guitar: Think twice before buying. Or better dont buy it. I also think if Paco played his model on his CD, he would have played the Jacaranda (I read he used a blanca... well make sense) model and not the Rio model. I had the rio model. And if you get it, you are a happy man if you can sell it for 3000 Euros. Paco dont play the model by himself... I would say, this is a striking argument not to buy it...

I wrote thins because I got unhappy for over 2 years with this guitar. I played much less because it was no fun to play it. It was bad for my playing from the beginning to the end. Now I own a new guitar and made more progress in the last 4-6 month than in during these 2 years.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 8:08:32

SantiagoFlamenco

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2009

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Doitsujin, thank you for the quick reply this forum is great! what kind of guitar do you play now? I was attracted to this guitar because of price and heard from others that it is similar sounding to a Conde Hermanos but less price and 3 day test. On you tube there is a good player Nino Josele playing a similar guitar and another player in spain the sound is very good.

From what I've read Vicente Carrillo worked with Paco's brother and Paco with the design of this guitar. My budget is only a little over $3000 and I'm below budget for any big name flamenco guitar at this price range. Anyone else have info that played this model?

thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 8:53:17

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Santiago, you should look at LaFalseta's inventory. There are some "made-in-Spain" new guitars which may fit your bill. Tom, who also posts here is a saintly patient gentleman, but above all a knowldgeable flamenco who will guide you most honestly through waht he has, could order, or even point you in a different direction.

On used instruments, i would consider the German Vazquez Rubio, from LA. I have a blanca and am very pleased with it. I see a few on various sites, blancas and what not, at prices which may fall in your range.

Good luck.

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 9:01:16

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Hey Santiago!

Yes I saw Nino Josele and Pedro Sierra playing a Paco guitar. But they play the Jacaranda. The 3 day test is a very good option. But be shure the seller is serious.

Now I play a Ricardo Sanchis Carpio, which is made by the Father himself. The sides and back are maple and the front is spurce. He only builded 2 with quilted marple, it looks pretty nice on the back. ^^ The other of these two bought enrique de melchor as I know.

I sold the Paco guitar for 3300Euros and I was really close to lower the price to 2500, coz I thought whoever test it... wont pay 4500Euros..
Don´t be influenced by any players who play this guitar... Its says nothing. Mine was played by Paco himself.. and it was really not good.. A horrible story.

So, if you can manage somehow to test a guitar before buying. Test it! And don't listen to any promoting arguments from the seller...

IMO used instruments which are on sale have always a weakness. Really always. Im also not interested in buying used guitars in future, too.. Too many bad experiences. And I had 10 different guitars in the last 5-7 years.

Its much much money... Its like buying a car.. so test by yourself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 9:35:24

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

I remember well when I first started playing Flamenco, all the excitement, all the choices and frankly I didn't know much about the instruments. I wanted to spend a fortune right away but I was glad I waited. As I got more experienced I realized I could make a more informed decision on an instrument. If you don't own a Flamenco guitar I would look at the Yamaha line of Flamencos, GS171F I believe is the model number, do a internet search for pricing but as others have advised, try and find a place that you trust to play several models if possible. I've recently played one and for $300 usd and it was pretty good. Even high end instruments vary in quality and it is a very subjective purchase. I've played some higher end instruments which didn't sound good to my ear anyway, but others would probably disagree. I also second the idea that you should check out LaFalseta for a great selection of mid- to higher priced instruments if you have your heart set on going that way.
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 13:13:42

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Your profile info under your name doesn't say where you're located. If you tell us, perhaps someone can even tell you the name of a local (or at least same continent) luthier who can build you a guitar.

Some people find that more satisfying than choosing based on name/price alone.

_____________________________

Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 13:46:15

SantiagoFlamenco

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2009

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Thanks for all information everyone! I currently play a Sanchis Solista that I owned since I started playing flamenco two years ago. Now I want a negra because the sound is fuller which I prefer. I want a Conde negra and played four that I really liked but the price is too high so this is why I think the this Paco de Lucia modelo Carrillo would be a good buy. I will keep my Sanchis as well for playing with dancers. I guess the best is to try out any guitar before buying first. Anyone else other than Doitsujin that played this guitar in this forum?
thanks! Santiago

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 14:52:44

pacowannab

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar. 3 2008

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

I also owned this model. It was very weak in the trebles with an especially muddy sounding G string. The neck was very chunky and difficult for my average- sized hands. I personally prefer 655mm to 660mm (decent volume with less hand injuries.) Ricardo Sanchis Carpio is a good option. There are others.

Testing a guitar is the way to go. Also, ask what strings are currently on the guitar. For example, D'Addario EJ45's are quite bland and dull strings but sound good on some bright guitars. When you are serious about a guitar ask them to change the strings to a brand you are familiar with. This way you'll get a better sense of the guitars true sound. (Dealers put strings on guitars to hide their weaknesses - eg s titanium g string on a guitar witha weak g. I find EJ45s good to compare with as I'm familiar with their sound. (Some say they are "neutral" sounding or, at least, consistent.)Godd luck and enjoy the process. Take your time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2009 20:18:08

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2009 5:20:37

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Guitar help (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
IMO used instruments which are on sale have always a weakness. Really always.

This is simply not true, there are exceptions and different situations. For instance, i am going totrade or sell my conde blanca soon just because I don't need 2 blancas - I want a blanca and a negra. Maybe I won't sell it all - I don't know.
I would rather buy a good used guitar as I am really tired of "playing in" new guitars for now. I also don't agree that condes are often very bad - I have not seen a single bad one so far even though I was buying without trying them first.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2009 7:45:17

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
IMO used instruments which are on sale have always a weakness. Really always.

This is simply not true, there are exceptions and different situations.

Yes there are always exceptions. But I know many people who sold and wanted to sell guitars in past.. and of course now. And in most of the cases there is a bad secret somewhere.. Me also didnt tell the buyers of my guitars about any weaknesses..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2009 8:09:41

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2009 12:12:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

You guys are forgetting one thing.

You can also order guitars from luthiers known not to cheat....

Thats an excelent way to get a high level instrument for an afordable price.

The contact you have with the builder also makes the instrument way more personal and affective than buying some small factory made thing on Ebay.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2009 23:48:26

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Guitar help (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

You guys are forgetting one thing.

You can also order guitars from luthiers known not to cheat....

Thats an excelent way to get a high level instrument for an afordable price.
The contact you have with the builder also makes the instrument way more personal and affective than buying some small factory made thing on Ebay.

100% true, - SantiagoFlamenco consider the above for sure, although there is a little wait you'll get a guitar built to your specs (not just physical features like scale, action etc, but good luthiers also take some of your desired sonic characteristics into account)

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 5:03:35

SantiagoFlamenco

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2009

RE: Guitar help (in reply to itoprover)

quote:

ORIGINAL: itoprover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

You guys are forgetting one thing.

You can also order guitars from luthiers known not to cheat....

Thats an excelent way to get a high level instrument for an afordable price.
The contact you have with the builder also makes the instrument way more personal and affective than buying some small factory made thing on Ebay.

100% true, - SantiagoFlamenco consider the above for sure, although there is a little wait you'll get a guitar built to your specs (not just physical features like scale, action etc, but good luthiers also take some of your desired sonic characteristics into account)

Yes that is another option thanks for that! I will think it over but the problem again is my budget. Some friends of mine experienced flamenco guitarists in Spain say it does not matter if the guitar was made by one person or five because in the end the final product/sound is what matters. I am aware that many luthier handmade guitars sound good but I have also played others that are not so good from luthiers inside and outside of Spain. My instructor for example owns many luthier made guitars (Devoe,Reyes,Maldonado etc) but he prefers to use his 1994 Conde de Madrid which from what I've heard are not fully luthier made. As of now my problem is budget but hopefully in the future I can afford a luthier made guitar.

I did contact the seller and he sounds legitimate. He is also a professional musician and willing to give me a 3 day test of the guitar. He sent me a video/soundclip of the guitar and it sounds very good to me at least. Thanks again for all the help!
Santiago

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 9:01:13

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Just as a general commentary to this thread and human nature: it is interesting how sometimes we seek advice from others with no real intention to follow any of it, unless it seconds our desires. We typically are stubbornly settled on our original decision, before we seek the advice and very little and equally rarely will dissuade us. People invest, take jobs, enter contracts, get married or divorce, even against advice they pay for. My files are regrettably full of letters having clients acknowledge that “we disagreed with the client’s decision” to protect ourselves from a client’s unaffected choice we estimate he will regret.

I am no exception, either.

But this page has a lot of interesting information one should treasure. Doitsujin’s frank confession that he wouldn’t hesitate to remain recalcitrant about any “weakness” of his guitar, should alarm many, but he is not suggesting anything egregiously extraordinary; in fact, I fear it is the unfortunate conduct. But it does or should alarm one to approach matters with a dash of mercantile malice.

Instruments are getting increasingly expensive. Our petty attachment to brands and labels does fuel the inflation. But there are, should one dedicate enough effort to research, phenomenal instruments not burdened by the mark-ups of success or marketing.

Ultimately, I believe that the guitar which will feel and sound best to each of us is the one we are willing to work with, adjust the action, choose appropriate strings, and play relentlessly so to learn how to husband its resources.

Hence, Santiago, give her a few dedicated months before finally assessing what you have in your hands.

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 9:44:58

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

I asked questions about humidity in another thread, but received no answers. Should he take humidity into consideration?

I mean, what's the climate like in Spain? I gather it can be hot and arid in some places, whereas people in Washington or British Columbia face generally cooler conditions with humid winters.

Is that something he should think about? Will a guitar acclimatise, or always have to be stored specially?

_____________________________

Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 10:01:44

flamencoguru

Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

Hello to all,

I'm pretty familiar with the PDL guitar. I've played a bunch of them. It's all about personal taste. Don't let the name fool you. Vicente Carrillo makes a fine guitar if that's what you like. With no disrespect, the whole reason that the PDL models came out was to make money for Ramon (RIP). Paco's name sells. About Vicente solely making the top models...???.... I'm a little skeptical. He's a businessman running a company... Yes, he does know how to make guitars. I'm not putting down factory guitars because many of the best guitars have come from factories. ie: Ramirez, Hermanos Conde, Sanchis, Carrillo, etc.. There are very few guitar makers in the world that solely complete their guitars start to finish.

It's all what you like and don't limit yourself to one guitar. I've played great guitars from lesser known builders that were absolutely fantastic....and for less than $4000. One happened to be from our very own Anders Elliasson. It was outstanding!!

Anyways, that's my two cents.

Un saludo, Errol

_____________________________

Errol Putigna
http://www.myspace.com/flamencoguru
http://www.youtube.com/flamencoguru

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 10:08:39

andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 3 2009 13:02:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2009 15:40:06

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2009 19:26:17

Black Sheep

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan. 26 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 2 2009 23:04:28

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2009 23:04:05

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Guitar help (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

I really think, if you wanna spend 5000Euros, a ticket to spain to test many guitars personally should be included!

Hi Santiago. Lots of good advice here, especially from Doit
Here is my 2 cents. If you are going to spend that kind of money, go to Spain for a week and check out the luthiers in Madrid, Granada and Cadiz/Jerez.

The PDL model is not a bad guitar but IMO vastly overpriced. I tried a few in Madrid and wasnt impressed. They certainly were not the same build quality as the guitars owned by the pros eg. Tomatitio, Nuñez (and I tried those guitars) and they were asking 9000 euros for a guitar which to me was only worth 4500. The Condes are particularly notorious for not being made by same maker start to finish....I mean look at the production numbers. An honest luthier makes 20- 30 instruments a year. My Conde is also a Sanchis and i like it for accomanying dancers too. You can get a hand made concert guitar from start to finish by an individual luthier that will probably sound better for around 3500 euros.

Lastly all hand built instruments are individual. even among the same maker there will be good and not so good. A lot is personal feel too. I had a Gerundino for a while that was technically a great guitar and very expensive, but it felt uncomfortable and "chunky" somehow. I sold it and bought a concert Bernal for half the price that sounds twice as good(well cheaper and louder to be more accurate). Even a great guitar might not sound so good if your playing style doesnt suit it.

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 1:03:12

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar help (in reply to SantiagoFlamenco)

quote:

go to Spain for a week and check out the luthiers in Madrid, Granada and Cadiz/Jerez.

And remember to leave out the rest of us...... baaahhhhhh

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 8:56:18

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Guitar help (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I thought you were in Cadiz...........

Well check out Anders too wherever he is

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 9:40:12