quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

He means, and says in french I guess?, that if you were to stay in FIRST position and do those fingerings (really he means ZERO position starting from open strings), then you could do the same finger patterns and you would have a different key. Meaning move every pattern down to the open strings position, and your underlined note is your phrygian key tonic.

But he is showing different positions, in tab, literally for only one key, that being E phrygian, but same patterns work for other modes of the C scale. C major, A minor, G mix lydian etc. In other words, a very misleading way to show scales, but not inaccurate.

Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

He means, and says in french I guess?, that if you were to stay in FIRST position and do those fingerings (really he means ZERO position starting from open strings), then you could do the same finger patterns and you would have a different key. Meaning move every pattern down to the open strings position, and your underlined note is your phrygian key tonic.

But he is showing different positions, in tab, literally for only one key, that being E phrygian, but same patterns work for other modes of the C scale. C major, A minor, G mix lydian etc. In other words, a very misleading way to show scales, but not inaccurate.

Ricardo

Ricardo:

Basically, you're saying that by moving your fingering down to different frets (yet on the same strings), you're just doing the same scales, in a different key, but in the same mode?

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf



Seriously guys, that seems like a very impossible and daunting task, how in the world am I going to remember and memorize all these different scales and then be able to play them at will and fast ....... I mean did you guys struggle with this as well? Is this part of the "paying my dues" travail? I almost feel like throwing my hands up and saying I can't do this!

quote:

But honestly none of this stuff is necessary for learning flamenco IMO.

e a d g b e
F - - - C F
- B E A - -
G C F - D G
- - - B - -
A D G C E A
- - - - F -
B E A D - B
C F - - G C 

e A
B A
G A
D C
A C
E B

0 E A D G x x
1 F - - - C F
2 - B E A - -
3 G C F - D G
4 - - - B - -
5 - - - - E A

0 E A D G B E
1 F - - - C F
2 - B E A - -
3 G C F - D G
4 - - - - - -
5 - - - - - A

e a d g b e
F - - - C F
- B E A - -
G C F - D G
- - - B - -
A D G C E A
- - - - F -
B E A D - B
C F - - G C 

In your example, you can see the Lydian pattern : ABBCCA 
F G A (E string - A pattern) 
B C D (A string - B pattern)
E F G (D string - B pattern)
A B C (G string - C pattern)
D E F (B string - C pattern)
G A B (e string - A pattern)

e a d g b e
F - - - - -
- B E A - -
G C F - D G
- - - B - -
A D G C E A
- - - - F -
- - - - - B

A1: AAABBC - Mixolydian
A2: AABBCC - Ionian (Major)
A3: ABBCCA - Lydian
B1: BBCCAA - Locrian
B2: BCCAAA - Phrygian
C1: CCAAAB - Aeolian (Minor)
C2: CAAABB - Dorian

2   3 1
ACB A ACB 

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrMagenta

Sorry for my post-frenzy! Just thought i'd share a way to remember how the three note per string patterns link to each other.

If we just name the patterns like Guitarbuddha did, starting with AAABBC as A1 we get:

A1: AAABBC - Mixolydian
A2: AABBCC - Ionian (Major)
A3: ABBCCA - Lydian
B1: BBCCAA - Locrian
B2: BCCAAA - Phrygian
C1: CCAAAB - Aeolian (Minor)
C2: CAAABB - Dorian

To get them in the order: play the second patterns first: A2 C2 B2 then A3 inbetween, and then the first patterns in the same order A1 C1 B1

2   3 1
ACB A ACB 

The thing i like with this way of looking at it is that you can start anywhere on the fretboard, whichever string and fret, and visualize the scale/mode you want to play from that note, over the whole fretboard from there.. man. i've been stuck in boxes.. that's why i'm so happy about this trick.

quote:

On a related note - this is a personal rant of mine so beware. I don't think it really is E phrygian anyway in flamenco - where does the E major chord come in then - there's no G sharp? I think it makes more sense to think of it as the notes of A melodic minor starting on E. A melodic minor is different on the way up and down like this
A B C D E F# G# A G F E D C B A
Here are all the notes found in a typical modal flamenco tune in the key of E

quote:

Cool, now do it for Rondeña. Just kidding.

quote:

No sharps or flats means they are all E phrygian. The same group of notes a C major (aka C Ionian). The Greek modes are 7 different names for the same group of 7 notes. Here C major is the group. You can simplify you life by just accepting that C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian are all just names that describe no sharps or flats.

Add one sharp (f#)and you have they key of G major. G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, F# Locrian.

Add 2 sharps (f#,c#) and you have the key of D major. D Ionian, E Dorian, F# Phrygian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian, C# Locrian.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

7ths are clear to me (if maybe not completely), but there are 6ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, augmented and diminished, and so on and so on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

quote:

No sharps or flats means they are all E phrygian. The same group of notes a C major (aka C Ionian). The Greek modes are 7 different names for the same group of 7 notes. Here C major is the group. You can simplify you life by just accepting that C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian are all just names that describe no sharps or flats.

Add one sharp (f#)and you have they key of G major. G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, F# Locrian.

Add 2 sharps (f#,c#) and you have the key of D major. D Ionian, E Dorian, F# Phrygian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian, C# Locrian.

Hey Jason, Ricardo an others,

the above is about where my knowledge of this theory stops. As a teen I remember memorizing these modes as a loop that closes at the 12th fret that you can spin how you want as long as you keep the order the same. What I'm missing is: how does the popular circle of 5ths help me besides for knowing which key sheet music is in? How does this connect to key changes within a piece or to understanding how a piece like "Cadencia" from Cañizares theoretically works? 7ths are clear to me (if maybe not completely), but there are 6ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, augmented and diminished, and so on and so on.

True if one wants to just play traditional flamenco it's not necessary, but if one wants to create modern things like you guys do, what of the complex theory has helped you get there? There's a lot I got out through guesswork and learning pieces, I just have a problem with doing things I can't explain to myself or others, and I don't want to tell someone "well PDL, Tomatito and Chucuelo did it - that's why it works..." On the other hand, I wonder how well the three could explain it themselves.