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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 4:01:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante: SOLEA Attn Norman (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Another thing that happens in this recording and also on many others is playing at tempo and changing chords in time and in compas but what may be in weird places. Paco (de Lucia) is a genius at this method.

Yep. Try Cada vez que nos miramos, I think the solea from Camaron's second recording with Paco. weird places for the chords, but all correct, and sounds traditional after all.

quote:

playing a "wromg" chord may be a part of living in the moment BUT....the more mistakes or missed chords can illustrate one's "foreignness" or inauthenticity.

Or lack of understanding of modality, how to make the feeling of tonic hold ground despite the other chords you play. In the end, for a singer, it is about making him or her feel comfortable enough to sing with feeling, knowing the guitar will be there when they need it, and the resolutions will come at the right time.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 14:45:37

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 15:08:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante: SOLEA Attn Norman (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Don't know what you mean. First you argue modality then insert tonic into the discussion. Can you explain?

Sure, i will try. Tonic is the main note, your drone of a mode. So chords used in modal music, are not functioning harmony. They are just coloring the scale of the mode. To consider Solea "modal", you have to forgive that whole G7-C thing, and therefore it is easy to allow, NOT doing that at all, or just doing G7, or Even just F with the #11 etc, is fine. Modal tonic is the idea, and plenty of ways to make it work, where as in tonal harmony you must have V-I always to make meaning out of harmonies.

How about when it is allowed in A phrygian say, when the singer sings a D note, sometimes a D minor is played. Other times a guitarist may just hold on to Bb. Both are accepted because the thing is Modal. Any chord other than A almost works, that has a D in it. MOdality on guitar is like Tonic chord, then "some other chord from the chord scale" then back to tonic. Rhythm plays a big part in making it work out.

Modal vamps help to get a feel for how one can carefully introduce different "chords" into modal music that does not use an actual drone. Flamenco is VERY adventurous in this sense, meaning they do vamps in phrygian, but introduce RELATIVE tonal harmonies, then return to the vamps. In some cases you have modulatios to parallel major or minor keys. Very tricky to NOT make it sound tonal after all. A skilled guitarist might experiment with how far out into "tonal" territory he can go before coming back to the mode. Like Paco accompanying Duquende for example. The exact opposite would be V. Amigo Accomp Pele's Siguiriyas very modally. Meaning, he only play ONE chord the whole time...tonic.

About making a singer feel comfy being complex. Well, if it is complex to YOU the accomp, fine, but you must do it. I personally don't think it is so complex. For example, your meantion of PDL with Mairena and the way he adapted. Complex? Or the way Tomate plays for Zambo and the jerezanos vs El Potito. Hope you get my point. Yeah there is a difference, but how complex that might seem depends on how versed you are in different styles. For the accompanist, it should be fun to slip in and out of different styles. Tomatito is so type cast for his role with Camaron, and there the camaroneros want him. But hearing him play for Zambo is so refresing. Or pansequito for example.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 15:44:47

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 16:27:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante: SOLEA Attn Norman (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Why is it then that someone who can venture into tonality is so revered.

Because it is different for flamencos, it is "exotic". The opposite would be like when Be bop was hot, Miles said, ok now we play just dorian. Or closer to home, stuff like flamenco sketches that uses a couple modes. Exotic. Then the beatles (also into using tons of cool chords in one song) got into indian drones too. Flamenco was already doing that simple two chord vamp thing, so the cramming chords thing seems exotic.

Tomatito had that live juerga on Paseo de los Castaños with Zambo and Fernando de la Morena. He plays very much with "jerez" style compared to other stuff you might be used to.

For sure, there are recordings worked out like Potito with Tomate. It is not like he just catches the stuff like on "ultimo cantaor" I think, the 2nd buleria. that is well rehearsed. But maybe you mean something else, I don't know. I really like his style, but I would not say he is so sought after as someone like Moraito, who actually accompanies everyone the same way as I see it. He has a perfect blue print for everyone, and it just works. Any derivations from the norm fall right into place. I mean, I have not heard him been so adventurous as other players of his generation in terms of accompanyng. And I don't mean to imply that is bad, in fact I think that is what most singers prefer. But some singers like a guitarist that likes to try stuff too.

You know Duquende's last CD with Chicuelo. They do a standard Buleria, the melody in A phrygian goes up to G natural, then down the scale, G-F#-E-D C# B. That B calls in the Cambio normally. so the trad chords are A -E7, right? Well Chicuelo does this crazy thing, A, F#7, Bm. Very tonal and "exotic" probably for flamencos. I think if I did that for a singer I would get some dirty looks!

So convention for sure is important. But if that is Duquende wanted, you gotta give it to him.