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Segovia and Yepe
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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My parents were classical guitarists. They had respect for flamenco, in fact that is how I first heard it, from my dad's records. Unfortunately, classical guitarists in general have A LOT of misconceptions about flamenco. They see it more as flashy techniques. But at the same time, a lot of flamenco guitarists have little or no respect for classical players, or think that there is something wrong with you if you need to read music. I think the younger generation that I have met, has mutual respect for what is going, although there are still misconceptions. I was impressed by Scott Tenanat's Pumping Nylon.
Anyway, a big problem I can see is rhythmic interpretation. Nowadays classical players are better at doing rhythmical things, than those of Segovia's generation. So what happened is a lot of people went to Segovia and said wow have you heard PDL? He probably got tired of the same old defense and started to say things like there is more to technique than fast picados, fast runs. He still wanted to keep the idea of classical guitar as a more "noble" thing, you know, BACH is REAL music, even though a lot of young flamenco players had amazing abilities.
But IMO, no classical player in the world can play LIKE or as good as PDL. But, they don't need to really, it is different music, a different world. So why compare at all? Well what happened is Paco played Aranjuez. Ever heard Yepes? Like many other classical players the guy had no timing, no groove, the orchestra chases him left and right. Paco is maybe the only guy that plays the concierto with a solid rhythmic feel. In fact, in print Paco said that was the whole point of his interpretation. If I was a Yepes, I would take those words personally, but maybe Paco said this AFTER he performed. Whatever happened, Yepes said that Paco had no business crossing over into the classical world, and that he ruined the concierto. The composer himself (Rodigo) thought that it was very "exotic".
Paco's tone is NOT classical, and that is looked at as a big part of technique in classical. The flamenco player likewise sees the "flamenco sound" as part of the technique. Ever seen Bream talking to Pena about his "unrefined" sound? Give me a break. But that is what I mean by "misconceptions".
I feel very strong about this subject and have lots of stories, but enough for now.
Ricardo
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Date Mar. 24 2006 21:50:58
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)
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I love this subject guys, keep rapping it up.
I have not much to say in addition to what's been written, except that classical guitar is sterile to me after a while, unless it is played with the passion, technique, rhythm and freedom which I get from flamenco.
Grisha is nobly trying to break the barrier, and doing such a fine job he is, by jupiter.
Ric, I'd love to hear more of your stories on this subject. It's a great shame, the antagonism which still exists to a degree.
Nickey makes an excellent point which few would deny... creativity, it's hugely lacking in the classical community. Also Henry says flamenco is more sociable, which is so true, although classical's are not trying to be because it's a different beast. In any case, there are some wickedly smart people on this forum. I love it.
-Conrad
p.s. Haha, ya... Yepes attempting La Barrosa is a painful image in my mind.
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Date Mar. 25 2006 3:35:50
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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Hmmm, looks like I'll say a bit more... I do actually have a problem with contemporary classical guitar--it seems to have a bit of a bias towards atonality. This probably sounds ignorant to the more educated forumites here, but it is what it is. I love the Baroque, Rennaissance, and Romantic repertoire, but somewhere in the early 1900's it started getting "weird."
Brouwer for example, is considered one of the geniuses, but I don't like what I've heard at all.
It does remind me a little of the progression to greater rhythmic (and to some degree, harmonic) complexity in modern flamenco. With all that is added, something seems lost.
Maybe I'm just getting old. But I can barely stand to listen to a 10 minute CG piece that stubbornly refuses to refer to any of the musical conventions that I know and love! :)
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Mar. 25 2006 5:05:44
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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I had a student once who wanted to learn fandango de huelva on the guitar. After a couple of hours with me, she started talking about wanting to bring a singer, I had the feeling she thought I was doing something wrong. Eventually she brought along a classical singer who believed to be able to sing a fandango de huelva off a sheet of notes.
As uncomfortable as it was, I led them throught the whole thing, correcting all the rhythmic errors, making the singer red in the face with embarrassment at every correction.
Then they wanted to try a Granaína, I quickly said "NOPE, NOPE, CAN'T DO IT!" 
They never came back and I was glad, I think they thought I was a fake...
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Date Mar. 25 2006 13:05:53
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edgar884
Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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The world of classical can be very snooty, thier very protective of there culture. But so is every culture, this relates to prejudice and racism. Our culture is still racist in many ways.
Ive met people that said hey were did you get out of prison, just because of my tattoos. ANd were suprized to find that I play classical guitar and Flamenco, and also play in a heavy metal band. cant judge a book by its cover man.
I think people tend to be very protective of their turf. EXample. I did a Flamenco show at this mexican club and we were lucky to get out of there alive. They wanted their Miriachi music and had know interest in Flamenco at all. So it was stupid for my dancer to set that up, not a good Idea. So does this mean mexicans and spaniards can't get along no, but there is tension there. I think its the musicians who tend to change trends and mix musical styles together, later on it gets excepted.
Classical used to be so interesting to me and beautiful, but i find that the Flamenco world is more adapt to except anyone with passion for thier music and thier culture.
I find it useful to except things and be as non judgemental as possible. I started this Thread in hopes to find what people realy think and feal about classical and Flamenco.
Ok yes I would rather listen to THe Luzia cd than my Narciso Yepe cd, so does that mean I'm prejudice against classical, maybe I am. I think Flamenco is the most amazing art form there ever has been and it just keeps growing and growing.
More often than not though, I think classical and flamenco help each other, and the people that realize this are just better players.
On this Forum I see many classical players who have found the power of Flamenco.
I would be the first to admit that I think it is going to take a long time for me to be able to play true Flamenco, being that I'm a classical guitar player and have no andalucian ties what so ever. But I'm ok with that and I'm enjoying the Journey.
Classical and Flamenco two different styles and cultures that have more in common than we realize, but will always be totally diferent at the same time. 
Hey cnotecon are you Conrad Adams ?
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May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons
www.gabrieledgar.com
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Date Mar. 25 2006 16:22:41
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Skai
Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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Frankly, it's impossible to compare both. They're plain different and both are amazing in different ways. Some say classical is boring, others say flamenco is all showy and not musical. It's basically personal preference whether you like it or not, in the first place.
Using Aranjuez as a comparison isn't a very good choice. If I'm not mistaken, Rodrigo composed it with the help of a flamenco guitarist. In the case of Aranjuez, the clear distinction between flamenco and classical is rather blurred, giving PdL an extreme advantage.
But what about PdL's interpretion of Manuel de Falla? They were just Spanishy interpretions and flamenco techniques. He was just taking the tunes and harmonies from the originals, and added other stuff to it. Just like a jazzy interpretion of Twinkle Little Star, sounds roughly similar but very different! And from a strict classical point of view, what PdL did was 'stole' from the compositions and could even be considered an insult!
Anyway, I feel that you should never use Yepes' Aranjuez as an example. I've seen a video of him playing it. Complete destruction of the composition, pathetic feeling and unrefined technique on his 'amazing' 10 stringed guitar. And remember that I equally love classical and flamenco.
To say that flamenco players were louder doesn't make sense either. The difference in volume is due to techical differences and the difference in types of guitars. Flamenco can get aggressive at times and this adds to the sound. Picado, rasgueado and alzapua sound particularly nice when strong and percussive, instead of sounding weak. Classical guitar aims to eliminate that kind of tone, it doesn't want strings slapping against the fretboard! It's meant to sound refined.
So why compare volume? Why ask Yepes to play La Barrosa? He'll destroy it. Can PdL play Capricho Arabe well? No thanks, I don't need a flamenco interpretion of a serenade. Plain ridiculous to challenge each other. Plus Yepes is a horrible classical guitarist in my opinion!
_____________________________
Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
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Date Mar. 25 2006 16:28:17
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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Hey, nice, I don't know how I missed that. Very well done, good rhythm, I think you're ready to take it up to speed or a little faster.
Ya, ModernToque is my website. I'll be getting hard at some new tabs soon, so stay tuned.
No uploads from me, no equipment, but of course I'll share them when they come.
best,
Con
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Date Mar. 25 2006 21:13:11
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Skai
Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
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RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)
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As I've always said, some flamenco tone and feel are great in interpreting Spanish classics, like Sevilla, Ritual Fire Dance, Danza Espanola etc. Not too much, just insert some 'flamenco' feel into them to make them sound more authentic. IMO such pieces should not be played entirely with a pure classical tone, it'll lack the Spanish sound and energy.
Another contradicting point is that Yepes is said to have studied for some time with flamenco guitarists in order to 'improve his rhythm'. It still sucks as I can see! His tone is unrefined for classical, he's lacking in great technical ability and I find that his interpretions are lousy. Many classical guitarists are TONS better.
Thinking back at Aranjuez, you have to really watch Yepes' climax of Adagio to get what I mean. One word describes it best, and the word is 'joke'. Even a non-Spaniard like John Williams, Roland Dyens and many others, sound tons better. Yepes tried to pull an authentic continuous rasgueado off, and he did. At half the speed! The sound was even worst than simply strumming up- and down-strokes.
_____________________________
Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
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Date Mar. 26 2006 6:17:16
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