RE: Segovia and Yepe

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Ricardo

Posts: 14897
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Skai)

quote:

SO maybe CLassical players learn more from Flamecos eh.
And not the other way around.

Except Flamencos usally can't do very good arpegios.

Well, on the contrary, the thing that really caught my ear at first in flamenco was the flowing arpeggios of solea. It sounded smooth like piano music, vs the classical guitar arps I was used to sounded like exercises. In fact everything I heard flamenco players doing at first sounded like it flowed naturally on the instrument, like that is the music it was made for.

Truth is I love Bach, I think he had cool rhythms. Prelude in E major has "bulerias" type falsetas and phrases if expressed the right way. I have yet to hear it played in the groove. J. Williams was closest but right at the best moment, he jumped and was a hair late on the position change. I know the stuff is hard, but without the groove on I think a big part of the music is lost. I loved Glenn Gould (pianist famous for Bach playing), he had great expression with rhythm, yet he got the typical critique "he was a machine, robot, no feeling, yadda yadda".

Roland Dyens, man he is great. But he is not your typical classical player, he certainly has world music influence, and he is a composer. Let's take Barrueco as a more typical classical player, who is certainly at the top. He does good with Spanish stuff, Bach, modern, you name it. He played a tune with Al Dimeola, the same tune Paco played with Al on "The Trio" album. Ok, it is not classical, it is not flamenco. It is music for the instrument, the classical guitar lets say. So Barrueco was really stiff and strugglin. He admitted it was the timing that was hard for him, even though he is a world famous concert maestro! The best flamenco player is much more versatile musically than the best classical player, if for no other reason than rhythmic feeling.

Segovia was born in Linares, which is in Andalucia where flamenco is from. I would be surprised if he did not know how to hum Taranta. But was born in the 1800s long before flamenco players were doing high tech stuff. I feel classical and flamenco guitar have evolved together technique wise. But Segovia DID make comments about PDL, which simply shows snobbery IMO. Segovia gave the guitar a place on the concert stage with classical piano, cello, violin etc. PDL showed later that not just the guitar but FLAMENCO MUSIC could also be appropriate for the concert hall (in Spain I mean). I doubt that if it were not for Segovia (or someone like him), PDL would not have gotten the chance. But fortunately, the younger generation is letting go of the snobbery of classical guitar being higher class than flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 15:29:24

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

Segovia's snobbery had a purpose. Until Segovia the guitar was pretty much viewed only as a folk instrument.

The fact is that it was a folk instrument. And still is, for the most part today.

Flamenco was a music that wasn't notated or transcribed. It was passed along, transmitted, the same way stories, language and culture are. Orally and visually.
As folk musics go, it's incredibly complex and truly worthy of academic style study.

Today's guitar folk music include country and western, blues, 'R&B' and rock & roll. All of those guitar musics are a far cry from classical music. They are the current music of the people, i.e. folk music.

Segovia saw the possibility to play 'real' music with the guitar and wanted to prove that the guitar was a worthy instrument and did belong on a concert stage. So he was compelled to be a snob to completely separate what he did with every 'folk' musician out there.

I'm not saying he was right, I'm just trying to add some perspective.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 18:46:20

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

I think if you are listening to Yepes, Williams, Segovia, Bream etc you are a generation or two behind in what is going on in classical today.Today. with players like Dale Kavanagh, Hubert Kappel, Eliot Fisk, Dyens, Phillipe Hi, (and on and on), you are closer but still not cutting edge. The early days, players were less schooled and unfamiliar with how to play within the 'classical' world and more often took the safe route (read boring). Players like Fisk were consider too wild (but now worshipped) early on. Its not unlike the period instrument movement in the seventies. Eveyone thought period performances with guts strings, etc should be delicate. But then groups like Il Gardino Harmonico (one of the most popular four seasons ever ... even over Nigel's) and Tafelmusik changed the face of period performances by realizing that baroque players where not 'tea toddlers' but rather wild and passionate and brought that to thier performances. As an old teacher of mine used to say "Bach had 20 children .. he couldn't be that boring".

The major difference for me, is that I never listened to classical guitar other than for reference. I ussually listened to more opera, piano, string quartets, symphonic works. I'd listen to the Bach chaconne on violin and then turn around and learn it for guitar. Or Cecillia Bartoli's Aria Antiche, which I then was inspired to arrange for guitar and baritone and do a concert series. The thing for me was classical music drove my interest not guitar CD's. I think the same is true in Flamenco. To be great you often hear that you have to listen to cante, perform with dancers, etc. Not isolate yourself to always listening to other guiatrists.

To claim that en entire genre of music in 'not as good as' or 'boring' in naive and basically ignorant. Boring comes from the musician not the music and regardless of the instrument, there will always be boring players and inspired musicians.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 19:11:45

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

Great stuff guys, I know that for me it's just that I have a hard time sitting down and playing some of my old classical stuff that I used to love to play. I still play it at my shows and weddings and stuff like that, but I have much more fun studying Flamenco.

Flamenco just has a tendency to grab you and never let go.
I guess what I meant Ricardo is that the Flamencos I have met not professionals usally don't have great arpeggios. I have noticed that when the thumb gets used to apoyanda your arpeggios can be played a lot faster I think its because by resting the thumb you restrict movement, which in return gives you more power and speed.

I find more and more that if it's good music its good music, but if you want to feel your blood flowing through your veins you might want to experience Flamenco.

I think Segovia and Yepe and others Breams Fisk even Terrega, even Paco and all the greats have a little sense of power for who they are and if I was that good I would proabably make some unfair comments about other players myself.

Such talent and ego wrapped up in one, but I forgive them.

_____________________________

May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons

www.gabrieledgar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 20:39:51

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

food analogy.

Flamenco is my meat and potatoes.

Classical is a sweet little treat sometimes, like Ice Cream.

But i cant live on ice cream.

PS
my arps are pretty clean, and my thumb never touches the guitar!!

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 20:46:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to edgar884)

I really appreciate folk like John Williams etc, they are great players without a doubt, BUT... there is something that happens in Flamenco guitar that really grabs me...be it virtuoso stuff or just well played basic/traditional stuff.
Somebody said a couple of posts ago that it seemed that the instrument was designed for it.
That's how I feel.
I think the best music I've ever heard on the guitar has been Flamenco.
It really brings the guitar to life IMO...
Be it Niño Ricardo or Tomatito....just different shades at different times....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 20:53:11

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

Yeh Todd, mister original, It still blows me away that you play with a pick, I can actualy do a little hybrid picking. I tried to do it with Flamenco but ouch, it hurts my pinky.
What made you decide to develop that technique anyway.

It doesnt touch because your using a pick. what kinda pick do you use.

My guess, grey dunlop medium.

_____________________________

May we find God through Flamenco instead of Angels and Demons

www.gabrieledgar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 21:22:36

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Segovia and Yepe (in reply to Ricardo)

When you compare classical guitar to, for example, piano, the reportoire is so minimal.
It's always those four (?) bach suites, villa lobos and some Turina, Moreno-Torroba, Ponce. Ok, and a little more

But you can't be satisfied with that all your life for christ's sake !
And let's face it, in comparison with other classical music the guitar composers were not really ahead of their time.
I mean, Sor and Carcassi in their time were composing in an old-fashioned style.
The Spanish composers discovered impressionism when it was already replaced by new styles.

There is imo a great lack of "high level" compositons when you compare it to the piano reportoire.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2006 21:58:44