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Chording
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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 Chording
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I am finally going to ask a question that has been with me for a while. Now, I suck at theory so this might seem like a stupid question, but I hope someone will be patient enough to explain it.
Some of the Flamenco pieces I see in my books have chord progressions that, according to my limited grasp of theory, should not fit or should sound bad. However, they all work quite well. As an example, I am going to point out Estudio #2 from Oscar Herrero's book, which is a very basic solea. The Chords I see here, in progression and comprising the first two verses, are:
E / E7 / Fmaj7 / G6 / Fmaj7 / E / F / E
From what I understand, this places it in the key of E. However, I was taught that in any major scale, chords 1, 4 and 5 (E,A,B) are always major and chords 2, 3 and 6 (Fm,Gm,Cm) are always minor, the 7th chord in any major scale is always a diminished chord. The above Solea does not not conform to these rules apparently, since F and G are not supposed to make an appearance in this key.
My theory is pathetic I know... 
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Date Jan. 25 2006 18:59:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Chording (in reply to Ryan002)
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Excellent of you to take note of this. This gets to the heart of the problem of mixing tonality and modality.
Tonality works because of 5ths chord progressions. Tonic to dominant. G7-C for example, in C major. C, F, Dm, G7, C, or C, Am, F, D7, G7, C etc. it is all about progression and resolution back to tonic. The same for minor keys, Am, Dm, G, C, F, Bhalf dim, E7, Am. For minor keys the scale changes so you can still have Tonic and dominant relationship (E7-Am, same as E7-A major, dominant resolves to tonic. Em to Am is not a strong resolution).
This idea works for classical, jazz, pop, whatever. Flamenco also follows this logic, for song forms in minor or major keys (Alegrias, Farruca, etc). But you can have a MODAL key too. Modes were meant to be a single drone and scale tuned to it, so you don't have chords that move or modulate. The guitar is not an instrument designed for modal music (like sitar), it is equal tempered like a piano, and thus bound to the tonal music system. So, in order to do modal flamenco accompaniment, the guitar has to make use of clever ways to establish and maintain modal tonic, without implying something like dominant in minor.
The spanish phrygian uses the same chords as the relative minor key, but comes to rest on what would be the dominant chord in minor. The way it is done is to think of the F chord as a dominiant function, that resolves to E phrygian, tonic. Rhythm plays a big part in letting this happen, but because of the nature of the guitar (tonal), a lot of westerners get the impression of something like Solea, as hanging on the V chord, or ending on the dominant. F, C7, F, Emaj. A lot of folks hear that and think "end it!, go to A minor" but all along it is meant to end on E. It is a challenge if you are not used to the sound, modal musics of the East, and don't understand the rhythm.
Still, Ryan, you dont' understand how to spell keys and scales. E major would have G#m, F#m, C#m, etc. E phyrgian shares the notes with Aminor/Cmajor. So study this diagram and understand how keys and scales and chords relate.
http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle2.jpg
Luckily, Flamenco only uses major, minor, and phrygian keys.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 25 2006 19:52:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Chording (in reply to sorin popovici)
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Sorin, it was a joke because of the steel drum thing. 4ths would mean, A-D-G-C-F-Bb. Get it?
Ryan, you are not DEEPLY flawed in your understanding of modes, since you at least noticed the problem with Solea. I just typed a freakin PHD level dissertation about modes, keys, scales, and how they relate to modality, tonality, and flamenco. It was brilliant, but when I tried to cut and save it to my clip board, I deleted it! 
The gist of it was modes on guitar are fake because of equal tempered tuning. But you can use them anyway, thanks to "vamping". C, F, G7,C is C major or tonal. C,F, Am, F, C is modal or Ionian. You need V-I for it to be tonal. But real, Eastern modal music does not allow you to use chord progressions or key changes, because you tune to a single tonic, like if you tuned to ONE chord shape on the guitar, perfectly, the other shapes will sound F'ed up. Cante is modal in nature with in-between notes that would sound sweet against tonic or drone. But the guitar adds a new dimension, the western tonal flavor, so flamenco is a tonal/modal hybrid of ideas. E Spanish phrygian is a combo of natural phrygian (related to C major) and phrygian dominant (related to Aminor). Solea uses tonal progressions (E7-Am, G7-C, C7-F, F7-E), but comes to rest on a modal tonic. The dissonance of the guitar and cante is part of the beauty of flamenco.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 26 2006 9:40:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Chording (in reply to Ryan002)
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quote:
Very, very strange. I feel like an American engineer during the Cold War who's trying to comprehend a Russian built computer. It becomes increasingly apparent to me that modal forms of music are operating quite independently of rules that I thought (and was taught) to be universal.
The fact that I don't even know what else to ask about modes shows how lost I am.
You are thinking in western terms by western rules of tonal harmony. You are right when you said modes are all related, or just change a note to make different mode, etc, but because you are thinking about the guitar, and the rules you learned are based on the world of the 12 note chromatic scale. That is how modes are used in modern jazz, pop rock, etc. Do you know Oye como va? That is a Dorian vamp, Am7-D7, over and over. It is in the key of A dorian, ABCDEF#G. Notice it has the same notes as G major scale. Relative to G maj, Am7-D7 are the chords ii-V7. So there is no difference in sound, but the song never resolves to G major. So it is modal. Any music on the guitar or piano that does not resolve at some point to major or minor key tonic through V-I, is looked at as modal. The best way to learn to hear the modes is to practice modal vamps, just two chords that don't ever resolve. F-E, F-E over and over makes it sound phrygian with the notes EFGABCD.
Think of Solea as not similar to E major key with changed notes. Think of it as similar to A minor, but you hang on the V chord, never resolving like Oye Como Va. The modes sound so similiar to major or minor keys, because they share all the same notes and interval relationships. You don't have that problem in Real Eastern Modal music where all you hear is the melody against the drone. Listen to Ravi Shankar.
In western music, your mode 4 of the C major scale is called F lydian (FGABCDE). Play an F chord, never change, and play the notes of that scale. That is the lydian sound, similar to stuff you might hear Ravi Shankar do, but in reality the difference is in the way the notes are tuned. The guitar only has 12 notes to the octave, but Indian instruments have notes that would be inbetween the frets, and sound more in tune relative to the F drone. The advantage and reason for the tonal system (your guitar has 12 frets to the octave not 20), is that YOU can do something on the guitar Ravi can't do. Even though your Lydian scale and chord is a little out of tune, you have the ability to change the meaning of what you play, by changing chords. If you play the same melody, but over a G7 chord, then over a C major chord, you imply that your orginal Lydian sound was not meant to be modal, but it was simply the IV chord harmony in C major. The sound is the same, but the chords give meaning, relative to each other. Ravi can't do that.
So flamenco phrygian like Solea can be seen as mode V of harmonic minor. Here is another post on modes:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=17412&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=modes&tmode=&smode=&s=
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Date Jan. 26 2006 15:58:47
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Chording (in reply to Ryan002)
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Well, you know these notes on the guitar or piano?
ABCDEFG? Also known as la, si, do, re, mi, fa, sol? If not, don't go any further.
An interval is the distance and resultant sound relation between two notes.
A-B is a major second interval
A-C is a minor third
A-D is a perfect fourth
A-E is a perfect 5th
A-F is a minor 6th
A-G is a minor 7th
B-C is a minor 2nd
C-E is a major 3rd
F-B is an augmented 4th (F-Cb would be called diminished 5th)
C-A (octave higher) is a minor 6th
C-B (octave higher) is a major 7th
So chords are constructed by stacking major and minor 3rd intervals. Aminor7th is spelled A,C,E,G. Gdominant7 is spelled GBDF, Cmajor7th is CEGB, etc.
Even though you only have 7 notes in a scale (the 8th note is the same as the first, the octave), you can keep stacking 3rd intervals.
Am9 is ACEGB, G11 is GBDFAC, Dm13 is DFACEGB. 13 is the end of it because you have used all notes in the scale in 2 octaves. So you can have 9,11,13 intervals also. A-B(octave higher) is 9th, A-D(octave higher) is 11th, A-F# is 13th.
Playing certain intervals brings out the flavor, color or mood of a mode when heard in relation to tonic (or drone).
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Date Feb. 1 2006 15:48:09
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Chording (in reply to soulstring69)
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He has a master's degree.
Actually, what he wrote is not that difficult. Just ignore the #s and nths and nds for a second and think about a guitar or a piano. Think of the octave as a basic unit (Somewhere over the rainbow...the some where is an octave). C to the C higher.
Inbetween those two notes, the C and the C, are 12 notes including the sharps. Prove it to yourself, by playing each fret between an octave on the guitar. For example, start on fifth string, 3rd fret, and play every note, including open strings, up until the 2nd string, 1st fret.
Now...the distance between any two notes in this scale is called an interval. Each interval has its own basic sound, and music and melodies are created out of these sounds or intervals.
For example, you have the interval of the octave, C to C. Then there is the sound of the 5th, which is the battle-call with the horn. Doh Doooh, doh doooh...(i'm sure people like Henrik from Scandinavian countries have heard the battle call many times). This is the sound of the C up to the G (open 3rd string). A very common and basic interval.
Another very common and useful interval is from C to D, called a major 2nd. I just remember it because it's the first two notes of a major scale.
And so on and so forth. It's very good to memorize the sound of all these intervals. Something I'm still working on, I'm sad to say.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Feb. 1 2006 20:10:51
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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RE: Chording (in reply to Ryan002)
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ok,
Miguel said about some intervals ,and how to asociate them with smth so that u'll recognize
it better
C-D easy if u can sing do-re-mi ---etc
C-E do -mi -sol , u got to know an arpeggio
C-F Mozart's Eine kleine...(a little night serenade) starts F-C-F (tam ta-tam),also Godfather theme song starts with a perfect 4th.
C-G the battle call
C-A play this tune on guitar (C A-A |C A A| C A A |G# A C) All notes equal .The "-" means
legato on duration ,u pluck A and let it ring like 2 As).This is a quite known opera tune.
C-G# or C-bA Love story theme
C-bB dont know any songs for this ,find one
C-B also dont asociate with smth ,just try to feel the close C
C-C octave ,some-where .....Thanks Miguel
ok, what about C-F# ?
I dont know ,have any bulerias falsetas or smth?
I have a question too ,how do the intervals resolve ?
I mean why it's normal that after I play G7 ,feels to play C?I often hear
things like "resolving chords" and I know what they mean,but I dont know
the rules about intervals ...I hope u know what I mean.
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Date Feb. 2 2006 2:51:27
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