Chording (Full Version)

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Ryan002 -> Chording (Jan. 25 2006 18:59:22)

I am finally going to ask a question that has been with me for a while. Now, I suck at theory so this might seem like a stupid question, but I hope someone will be patient enough to explain it.

Some of the Flamenco pieces I see in my books have chord progressions that, according to my limited grasp of theory, should not fit or should sound bad. However, they all work quite well. As an example, I am going to point out Estudio #2 from Oscar Herrero's book, which is a very basic solea. The Chords I see here, in progression and comprising the first two verses, are:
E / E7 / Fmaj7 / G6 / Fmaj7 / E / F / E

From what I understand, this places it in the key of E. However, I was taught that in any major scale, chords 1, 4 and 5 (E,A,B) are always major and chords 2, 3 and 6 (Fm,Gm,Cm) are always minor, the 7th chord in any major scale is always a diminished chord. The above Solea does not not conform to these rules apparently, since F and G are not supposed to make an appearance in this key.

My theory is pathetic I know...[>:]



ToddK -> RE: Chording (Jan. 25 2006 19:12:07)

You cant really treat it like that. It has its own system sort of, but in
a way, there is no system, like there is for classical or jazz. Well,
maybe not quite as concrete.

You can use an E major7 in Solea, its all in the way you get in, get out, and back
to E 7 b9.[;)]

Lola Fernandez wrote a book on flamenco theory. Maybe you should
check it out. Ive been curious to read it for quite some time.

TK



duende -> RE: Chording (Jan. 25 2006 19:14:34)

doesn´t Manuel Granados have a theori book?



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Jan. 25 2006 19:52:33)

Excellent of you to take note of this. This gets to the heart of the problem of mixing tonality and modality.

Tonality works because of 5ths chord progressions. Tonic to dominant. G7-C for example, in C major. C, F, Dm, G7, C, or C, Am, F, D7, G7, C etc. it is all about progression and resolution back to tonic. The same for minor keys, Am, Dm, G, C, F, Bhalf dim, E7, Am. For minor keys the scale changes so you can still have Tonic and dominant relationship (E7-Am, same as E7-A major, dominant resolves to tonic. Em to Am is not a strong resolution).

This idea works for classical, jazz, pop, whatever. Flamenco also follows this logic, for song forms in minor or major keys (Alegrias, Farruca, etc). But you can have a MODAL key too. Modes were meant to be a single drone and scale tuned to it, so you don't have chords that move or modulate. The guitar is not an instrument designed for modal music (like sitar), it is equal tempered like a piano, and thus bound to the tonal music system. So, in order to do modal flamenco accompaniment, the guitar has to make use of clever ways to establish and maintain modal tonic, without implying something like dominant in minor.

The spanish phrygian uses the same chords as the relative minor key, but comes to rest on what would be the dominant chord in minor. The way it is done is to think of the F chord as a dominiant function, that resolves to E phrygian, tonic. Rhythm plays a big part in letting this happen, but because of the nature of the guitar (tonal), a lot of westerners get the impression of something like Solea, as hanging on the V chord, or ending on the dominant. F, C7, F, Emaj. A lot of folks hear that and think "end it!, go to A minor" but all along it is meant to end on E. It is a challenge if you are not used to the sound, modal musics of the East, and don't understand the rhythm.

Still, Ryan, you dont' understand how to spell keys and scales. E major would have G#m, F#m, C#m, etc. E phyrgian shares the notes with Aminor/Cmajor. So study this diagram and understand how keys and scales and chords relate.

http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle2.jpg

Luckily, Flamenco only uses major, minor, and phrygian keys.

Ricardo



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Chording (Jan. 25 2006 21:40:47)

Ryan,
you better learn that page or he's going to put it in his sig.

Just kidding, Ricki :)

OT anyone played a steel drum before? I was at a party and the guy played steel drum. He said it's laid out in the circle of fifths. Imagine trying to play a fast scale on that. Daaamn!



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Jan. 25 2006 22:07:03)

quote:

Imagine trying to play a fast scale on that. Daaamn!


Just like making soup, no? I bet it would sound cool though. I can play 4ths really fast,[;)].



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 6:16:25)

I have a deeply flawed understanding of modalities and how to apply them. Previously, I was under the impression that the terms key, scale and mode were all more or less interchangable. I thought the various modalities were nothing more than tools used to construct solos, very much like scales. My definition of phrygian was "sharpen all the Gs".

So what exactly *is* a modality? I don't understand what specific quality in the sound the modality would affect....



sorin popovici -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 8:51:17)

[offtopic ]
Ricardo ,how do u play 4ths?I mean i tried with c-f d-g e-a f-b etc,but i got to do lots
of little barres with my left? sure, this is teaching me to barre with any finger,but still
seems like it will never be fast enough.
[/offtopic]

I dont think this is the best link ,but it says

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/scales/modes_with_mode_dictionary.html



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 9:40:49)

Sorin, it was a joke because of the steel drum thing. 4ths would mean, A-D-G-C-F-Bb. Get it?

Ryan, you are not DEEPLY flawed in your understanding of modes, since you at least noticed the problem with Solea. I just typed a freakin PHD level dissertation about modes, keys, scales, and how they relate to modality, tonality, and flamenco. It was brilliant, but when I tried to cut and save it to my clip board, I deleted it![:@][:@]

The gist of it was modes on guitar are fake because of equal tempered tuning. But you can use them anyway, thanks to "vamping". C, F, G7,C is C major or tonal. C,F, Am, F, C is modal or Ionian. You need V-I for it to be tonal. But real, Eastern modal music does not allow you to use chord progressions or key changes, because you tune to a single tonic, like if you tuned to ONE chord shape on the guitar, perfectly, the other shapes will sound F'ed up. Cante is modal in nature with in-between notes that would sound sweet against tonic or drone. But the guitar adds a new dimension, the western tonal flavor, so flamenco is a tonal/modal hybrid of ideas. E Spanish phrygian is a combo of natural phrygian (related to C major) and phrygian dominant (related to Aminor). Solea uses tonal progressions (E7-Am, G7-C, C7-F, F7-E), but comes to rest on a modal tonic. The dissonance of the guitar and cante is part of the beauty of flamenco.

Ricardo



sorin popovici -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 10:34:54)

I know i meant like play every fouth note in a scale,just like u hear a lot of runs in thirds.
Anyway,I didnt get the joke ...I really believed that somebody could have a run like i said.



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 12:40:07)

Very, very strange. I feel like an American engineer during the Cold War who's trying to comprehend a Russian built computer. It becomes increasingly apparent to me that modal forms of music are operating quite independently of rules that I thought (and was taught) to be universal.

The fact that I don't even know what else to ask about modes shows how lost I am. [:@]



seanm -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 14:01:16)

How about stepping back and looking at tonal systems (western, modal, etc) in general? The underlying reason music is 'satisfying' so the ear is that you have the elements of tension and release. For instance, in the so called western tonal system the V or dominant chord is the most removed from the tonic I and wants to resolve the to the tonic the most. This is it tension and release that make this cadence so satisfying to the ear. Similarly, it helps define the root of the harmony. If you use the drone, this drone will tend to dominate and become the tonal center. As you move away from (more disonant) and back to (more consonant) this drone you get a modal tension and release that allows it 'to make sence' to the ear. An extreme example is Hindemith, who catelogued note clusters from most consonant to most dissonant that then wrote music based known tonal progressions but weren't based on any known scale.

Sean



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Jan. 26 2006 15:58:47)

quote:

Very, very strange. I feel like an American engineer during the Cold War who's trying to comprehend a Russian built computer. It becomes increasingly apparent to me that modal forms of music are operating quite independently of rules that I thought (and was taught) to be universal.

The fact that I don't even know what else to ask about modes shows how lost I am.
 


You are thinking in western terms by western rules of tonal harmony. You are right when you said modes are all related, or just change a note to make different mode, etc, but because you are thinking about the guitar, and the rules you learned are based on the world of the 12 note chromatic scale. That is how modes are used in modern jazz, pop rock, etc. Do you know Oye como va? That is a Dorian vamp, Am7-D7, over and over. It is in the key of A dorian, ABCDEF#G. Notice it has the same notes as G major scale. Relative to G maj, Am7-D7 are the chords ii-V7. So there is no difference in sound, but the song never resolves to G major. So it is modal. Any music on the guitar or piano that does not resolve at some point to major or minor key tonic through V-I, is looked at as modal. The best way to learn to hear the modes is to practice modal vamps, just two chords that don't ever resolve. F-E, F-E over and over makes it sound phrygian with the notes EFGABCD.

Think of Solea as not similar to E major key with changed notes. Think of it as similar to A minor, but you hang on the V chord, never resolving like Oye Como Va. The modes sound so similiar to major or minor keys, because they share all the same notes and interval relationships. You don't have that problem in Real Eastern Modal music where all you hear is the melody against the drone. Listen to Ravi Shankar.

In western music, your mode 4 of the C major scale is called F lydian (FGABCDE). Play an F chord, never change, and play the notes of that scale. That is the lydian sound, similar to stuff you might hear Ravi Shankar do, but in reality the difference is in the way the notes are tuned. The guitar only has 12 notes to the octave, but Indian instruments have notes that would be inbetween the frets, and sound more in tune relative to the F drone. The advantage and reason for the tonal system (your guitar has 12 frets to the octave not 20), is that YOU can do something on the guitar Ravi can't do. Even though your Lydian scale and chord is a little out of tune, you have the ability to change the meaning of what you play, by changing chords. If you play the same melody, but over a G7 chord, then over a C major chord, you imply that your orginal Lydian sound was not meant to be modal, but it was simply the IV chord harmony in C major. The sound is the same, but the chords give meaning, relative to each other. Ravi can't do that.

So flamenco phrygian like Solea can be seen as mode V of harmonic minor. Here is another post on modes:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=17412&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=modes&tmode=&smode=&s=



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Jan. 30 2006 12:05:32)

I have been cracking my head over this for a while and I am still quite lost, but I have inferred one thing, which may be wrong.

Tonal systems create tension and release via the differances between degrees, whereas modal systems do so by altering the distance to and from a specific chord.

Am I right?



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Jan. 31 2006 14:56:08)

quote:

Tonal systems create tension and release via the differances between degrees, whereas modal systems do so by altering the distance to and from a specific chord.



No, sort of backwards. Tonal systems use the chords, specifically tension(V chord) and release(I chord). Modal systems use the intervals of the scale or melody to create tension against the tonic or drone. You don't need chords at all for it to be modal.



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 14:46:46)

I should probably know this but...what exactly is an interval?

Sigh. Should have gone for that theory course. [:(]



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 15:48:09)

Well, you know these notes on the guitar or piano?
ABCDEFG? Also known as la, si, do, re, mi, fa, sol? If not, don't go any further.

An interval is the distance and resultant sound relation between two notes.
A-B is a major second interval
A-C is a minor third
A-D is a perfect fourth
A-E is a perfect 5th
A-F is a minor 6th
A-G is a minor 7th
B-C is a minor 2nd
C-E is a major 3rd
F-B is an augmented 4th (F-Cb would be called diminished 5th)
C-A (octave higher) is a minor 6th
C-B (octave higher) is a major 7th

So chords are constructed by stacking major and minor 3rd intervals. Aminor7th is spelled A,C,E,G. Gdominant7 is spelled GBDF, Cmajor7th is CEGB, etc.
Even though you only have 7 notes in a scale (the 8th note is the same as the first, the octave), you can keep stacking 3rd intervals.
Am9 is ACEGB, G11 is GBDFAC, Dm13 is DFACEGB. 13 is the end of it because you have used all notes in the scale in 2 octaves. So you can have 9,11,13 intervals also. A-B(octave higher) is 9th, A-D(octave higher) is 11th, A-F# is 13th.

Playing certain intervals brings out the flavor, color or mood of a mode when heard in relation to tonic (or drone).



soulstring69 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 20:02:38)

my head is spinning like a circus ride. does anyone else feel as stupid as i do right about now? ricardo where did you learn all that?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 20:10:51)

He has a master's degree.

Actually, what he wrote is not that difficult. Just ignore the #s and nths and nds for a second and think about a guitar or a piano. Think of the octave as a basic unit (Somewhere over the rainbow...the some where is an octave). C to the C higher.

Inbetween those two notes, the C and the C, are 12 notes including the sharps. Prove it to yourself, by playing each fret between an octave on the guitar. For example, start on fifth string, 3rd fret, and play every note, including open strings, up until the 2nd string, 1st fret.

Now...the distance between any two notes in this scale is called an interval. Each interval has its own basic sound, and music and melodies are created out of these sounds or intervals.

For example, you have the interval of the octave, C to C. Then there is the sound of the 5th, which is the battle-call with the horn. Doh Doooh, doh doooh...(i'm sure people like Henrik from Scandinavian countries have heard the battle call many times). This is the sound of the C up to the G (open 3rd string). A very common and basic interval.

Another very common and useful interval is from C to D, called a major 2nd. I just remember it because it's the first two notes of a major scale.

And so on and so forth. It's very good to memorize the sound of all these intervals. Something I'm still working on, I'm sad to say.



soulstring69 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 20:30:54)

am i supposed to learn all this to play flamenco? if so. i will quit today.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 22:33:42)

Of course, you don't have to know the terminology, but if you want to play well, of course you need to have a strong familiarity with each interval and chord you will encounter. That doesn't mean you have to learn how to read music--most of the greats did not. I think a better attitude than the "quit now" one is, yes it's going to take a lot of work to learn how to play flamenco, so might as well get started.



soulstring69 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 1 2006 23:40:19)

miguel de maria, i agree wiht you. i have a basic understanding of intervals and from one octave to another like from low C to the high C or other octaves. to learn all that stuff in between is gong to take me some time. i know what an interval is from one octave to the other because i used to play a banjo when i was much younger and my father gave to me a flute that i used to become a alto sax player. so from there i know some music. but flamenco has chords that are played different from western chords. for example, if i play a barred F chord in wester music holding all the string down wiht my first finger, with flamenco, i only finger the 6 5 4 strings and let the trebles ring. so playing an F barred chord in western music is way different when played for flamenco. now what i just typed might not make sense but i can tell the flamenco music is much diferent, and that is why i like to learn it. i study hard all the time and it is so difficult from playing a acoustic guitar like rock and roll or blues, or bluegrass.

so i will proceed along the hard path just like everyone else and learn but i cannot at this point in time learn the things that ricardo wrote, and if i do have to learn that, well, the i guess i must.
david



sorin popovici -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 2:51:27)

ok,

Miguel said about some intervals ,and how to asociate them with smth so that u'll recognize
it better

C-D easy if u can sing do-re-mi ---etc
C-E do -mi -sol , u got to know an arpeggio
C-F Mozart's Eine kleine...(a little night serenade) starts F-C-F (tam ta-tam),also Godfather theme song starts with a perfect 4th.
C-G the battle call
C-A play this tune on guitar (C A-A |C A A| C A A |G# A C) All notes equal .The "-" means
legato on duration ,u pluck A and let it ring like 2 As).This is a quite known opera tune.
C-G# or C-bA Love story theme
C-bB dont know any songs for this ,find one
C-B also dont asociate with smth ,just try to feel the close C
C-C octave ,some-where .....Thanks Miguel

ok, what about C-F# ?
I dont know ,have any bulerias falsetas or smth?

I have a question too ,how do the intervals resolve ?
I mean why it's normal that after I play G7 ,feels to play C?I often hear
things like "resolving chords" and I know what they mean,but I dont know
the rules about intervals ...I hope u know what I mean.



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 3:23:11)

I've only now noticed that the vast majority of non-flamenco songs I play end in 4 5 1 or 2 5 1. Now I get what he means when he says anything not resolving that way is modal. I'm still kind of dazed though.

Previously I was under the impression that tension and release was simply a matter of resolving from a sus chord to a major chord, but it looks like it's always been done in more ways than that....



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 4:10:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002

Previously I was under the impression that tension and release was simply a matter of resolving from a sus chord to a major chord, but it looks like it's always been done in more ways than that....


Ryan,
YA THINK!?


:)))))



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 5:24:42)

Hey! It's not my fault if my most of my early music theory comes from a guy whose repetoire revolves around Ronan Keating. [8D]

His "you go from sus to major" was at the time the only clear cut theory statement I'd ever heard. [:D]



duende -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 5:32:45)

quote:

i'm sure people like Henrik from Scandinavian countries have heard the battle call many times)


yes it´s my alarm call, nothing is like waking up in the moring at 06:00 by a DOO DOOT DOOO!![:D][:D][:D][:D]



duende -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 5:34:57)

quote:

ok, what about C-F# ?


Black Sabbath has a song that goes. E E E E E E E Bb E E E E E E E Bb A
cant remember the name just now.
but it´s works as a triton melodie.



Ryan002 -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 5:52:49)

I think the song you may be referring to is N.I.B. Also, a lot of the Iommi riffs had a signature "chug" that goes like that.



Ricardo -> RE: Chording (Feb. 2 2006 7:39:03)

quote:

I've only now noticed that the vast majority of non-flamenco songs I play end in 4 5 1 or 2 5 1. Now I get what he means when he says anything not resolving that way is modal. I'm still kind of dazed though.


Excellent! You did learn something and it means I did not type all that crap for nothing![:D]

To anyone wondering, the answer is NO you don't need any music theory knowledge as we are discussing, to learn or play flamenco. You do need to have rhythm though.

And where did I learn the stuff I am talking about? In my room fiddling around with my electric guitar when I was 13-14. College level theory does not really get more complex than the Circle of 5hs, as I posted earlier. It is just analysis, you need to learn to apply it on your own. I have BM, not masters of music.

Ricardo



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