The absence of Ramirez guitars after mid-80s

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EL TORITO

Posts: 2
Joined: Oct. 6 2016

The absence of Ramirez guitars after...

First let me say I am glad to be back here after a 7+ year hiatus (life!). But flamenco was always in my soul. I used to post under "Lorenzo".

Anyway I have a nagging question. It seems that Ramirez 1A guitars after 1984 are almost never seen on the resale market. Why? They are such musical sounding flamenco guitars and I've always been impressed by them. I currently own a newer Conde from Felipe V shop and Antonio Marin flamenco guitars. But every time I hear one of those lively Ramirez from the 60s, 70s and early 80s I go looking again. I thought a newer Ramirez would be nice to own. The high price has not stopped Conde's output. Does someone have an explanation why Ramirez flamencos are no long the instrument to own and in fact virtually absent since the mid-80s?

Cheers,

Larry

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2016 1:00:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The absence of Ramirez guitars a... (in reply to EL TORITO)

Good question. I only remember the "de camera" model becoming what J.Ramirez III felt as his crowning achievement at that time, and we hardly see em around. Perhaps the older 1A simply stood the test of time? I for one used to own one that I personally couldn't stand so I traded it for a good Conde A26...best deal I ever made.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2016 2:48:46

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The absence of Ramirez guitars a... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I for one used to own one that I personally couldn't stand so I traded it for a good Conde A26...best deal I ever made.

Same here only I sold mine for $350 which was more than it was worth.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2016 14:22:24

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: The absence of Ramirez guitars a... (in reply to EL TORITO)

The short answer is that Jose Ramirez gave most of his energy to development of the classical guitar and rather lost his way with flamencos (even he admitted this). I found 1980s guitars sweet but not electrifying! Most of the 60s and 70s guitars had cedar tops and these represent a unique sound in the history of flamenco guitars. If you want to sound like Sabicas that’s the way to go!

Back in the 60s and 70s I saw mainly Ramirez and Sobrinos de Esteso played by professionals in Madrid. They were not necessarily the best guitars but they were both readily available over the counter.

Jose Ramirez III trained a team of luthiers who worked under his strict control. From about 1967 guitars were numbered, starting at about 2000 (to reflect earlier unnumbered output?) and the initials of the luthier who was mainly responsible for each guitar was stamped inside on the heel. They were turning out 1000 guitars a year by 1972. This numbering series numbering stopped in about 1986 at approximately 20000.

Old cedar Ramirez guitars with white golpeadors to hide the battle scars and cracks were very common in the 1990s but the newer generation of Ramirez flamencos did not prove popular. I have a couple of cedar tops at the moment – one spent most of its life hiding under a bed in USA and then France.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2016 14:42:50

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: The absence of Ramirez guitars a... (in reply to EL TORITO)

My 2 cents:
The de camara model was the heaviest classical Ramirez 1a ever made (due to a floating rosewood back between top and back), hardly usable for flamenco. Unfortunately Ramirez guitars were commonly set with a high action at the 12th fret and low action at the bridge. Segovia wanted such a high neck relief that made flamenco unplayable ...
1 As other people already said, the market of classical guitars was both more profitable and "honourable" for a brand like Ramirez (at the time considered a 'must have' for any serious professional): Richard Bruné wrote extensively about that superiority complex of Segovia over the popular aires, the gitanos etc. in his article "the origins of the classical guitar".
On the other side Ramirez used to sell classical guitars worldwide and obviously had few interest to win the small market of flamenco guitars.
2 The standard quality of Ramirez (according to many) dropped down arter the '80ies.
My understanding is that as they made big numbers (Robje explained it very well) the product ceased to be as good as before (at least the average wasn't as good as before).
The market suggests the best years for the flamenco Ramirez guitars are the sixties as they are still very sought after.
From 1965 Ramirez made a kind of a unique flamenco guitar (the model used by Sabicas) using mostly cedar tops with thin cypress back and sides.
3 in the 70ies the flamenco guitar standard became the new Conde model (particularly the flamenco negra) after Paco de Lucia.
Flamenco changed, Ramirez kept making the same model and never tried to follow the new trend.
4 The best journeymen of Ramirez left the company and the players who didn't favour Conde (a few) often preferred Contreras, Manzanero or Bernabe' over Ramirez.
From the 70ies the former Ramirez employees IMHO used to make better guitars than Ramirez even though just a few of them specialised in flamenco guitars (Josè Romero, Manzanero, Pedro de Miguel and more recently Manuel Caceres).
These guitars were often more expensive than Conde and very well made.
The post -Faustino era is a different age. Today you have many options (often cheaper, like Sanchis) and many top players are not anymore as faithful to Conde as they used to be before. Ramirez still doesn't offer a guitar able to compete with other brands IMHO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2016 19:00:30