Help me with my saddle

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Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

Help me with my saddle

I recently discovered my strings are too low and my saddle needs to be raised by 1.5mm
I took the old saddle off and a few things seems strange.
I think it must be made out plastic as it has a yellowish color and can be bent with my fingers.
It is 3.3mm thick which seems kind of thick. I compared it to the one on my classical which I know is bone and material seems different and the classical is maybe 2mm thick.
There are some ramps cut in it that start at the top and slope towards the back of the guitar, I assume these are for compensation but only the low E and B strings sit on these ramps and other ramps do not contact any strings. Looking with a magnifier it does appear the ramps were hand done with a file or something.
I plan to make a new saddle from bone that is 1.5mm taller, but wonder if I should bother trying to mimic the ramps for the low B and E strings.
I did check the intonation of each string open and at the twelfth fret and in general the twelfth fret was a bit sharp.
Below are some pictures showing the ramps. Thanks for any ideas.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2016 3:09:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

I have seen guitars with wider saddle bones (standard is 2.3mm) because the bridge was placed to far forward and then the compensation was wrong. Then opening the saddle slot backwards gives the possibility to file the bone in a way like yours, thus making the distance between 12th fret and saddle bone longer.
Its maybe not 100% correct, but it doesnt have to be a problem. If it works, it works and if it sounds, it sounds. And it is a LOT easyer than taking off the bridge a glue it where it should have been from the start.
If I was you, I would make a new 3.3mm bone saddle , file it slightly backwards and thats it. Maybe include a few serious talks with the guitar so that no hard feelings are left over.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2016 9:21:55

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

Anders,

Thanks for the explanation. Since I am making the new saddle 1.5mm taller will that change the intonation since the strings will be very slightly longer?
Or is it not enough to worry about? Is there somewhere I can read to learn more about compensation?
What tools do you use the shape the saddle? I have read hacksaw, files and sanding can be used.
I think the guitar is a little mad at me since I put skinny carbon strings on it and the high E snapped and put a ding in its top.
Never again I will use carbon strings.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2016 15:07:24

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

I like to use a needle file and different grits sandpaper glued on a perfectly flat surface for this job. Did you allready try to put shims in the saddle slots(under the bone)? Make sure there are no sharp edges left before putting the strings back on.
Whit carbon trebles I always make double loop and a not on the end of the string, so it wont slip. Don´t throw away the old(plastic) saddle, in case you mess up

Good luck

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2016 18:13:29

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

I like to use a needle file and different grits sandpaper glued on a perfectly flat surface for this job. Did you allready try to put shims in the saddle slots(under the bone)? Make sure there are no sharp edges left before putting the strings back on.
Whit carbon trebles I always make double loop and a not on the end of the string, so it wont slip. Don´t throw away the old(plastic) saddle, in case you mess up

Good luck

I was going to try a 1.5mm shim but the slot in the bridge is not very deep so I figured I might as well go straight to making a new saddle. Do these needle files look ok:

http://www.amazon.com/JawayTool-Carbon-Steel-Needle-File/dp/B00X5I5ZAE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

There is also a version with diamond coating:

http://54.239.26.128/JawayTool%C2%AE6pc-Diamond-Needle-Stone-Glass/dp/B00X5I5YS2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

Or should i get the Stew Mac ones:

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Files/Needle_Files_Set_of_5.html

I started doing the same thing with carbon strings but I didn't like sound so I don't use them any more. I also tape an old credit on the top below the bridge when changing strings. Wish I knew that before the damage was done.

Thanks

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2016 21:00:09

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

I would make a new saddle without ramps and test how the intonation is.

If its sharp on 12th fret, I would ramp the 2 e-strings and when in tune, I would ramp the whole saddle to a straight line between the two ramps.

Compensation is pretty simple and not high tec. It also changes with string brand and tension.
But in general, if you meassure the 2 E strings from nut to 12th fret center!, then the stringlength from 12th fret center! to front of saddle should be around 1mm longer on trebble -e and 1.5mm longer on bass-e.

example bass-e: 325mm from nut to 12th fret center! = 326.5mm from 12th fret center! to front of saddle

Good luck

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 8:44:12

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

Do you use carbon strings Anders? Compensation is a funny business isn't. I use a straight 1.5mm compensation for all of the strings and have no troubles but I use a medium high tension nylon set.

Compensation is easy to play with. You just need to remember a rule if the note is sharp add more compensation and if it's flat take some away!

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 11:55:58

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I would make a new saddle without ramps and test how the intonation is.

If its sharp on 12th fret, I would ramp the 2 e-strings and when in tune, I would ramp the whole saddle to a straight line between the two ramps.

Compensation is pretty simple and not high tec. It also changes with string brand and tension.
But in general, if you meassure the 2 E strings from nut to 12th fret center!, then the stringlength from 12th fret center! to front of saddle should be around 1mm longer on trebble -e and 1.5mm longer on bass-e.

example bass-e: 325mm from nut to 12th fret center! = 326.5mm from 12th fret center! to front of saddle

Good luck

Anders,

Thanks that helps a lot. I started reading about intonation and compensation and its really complex, my head is spinning right now. But I will continue to read about it.
I made some measurements on my guitar:

Low E 329 mm nut to 12th fret, 328 mm 12th fret to saddle.
High E 329 mm nut to 12th fret, 326 mm 12th fret to saddle.

I guess this explains why my guitar is sharp by about 12 cents at the 12th fret.
So I think I should make the new saddle with the contact to the strings further back.

I also noted that the strings contact the nut (its plastic) more towards the head stock, the nut slots are not flat there is a ramp so the strings are in the air where the nut meets the finger board. On my classical guitar the nut slots are flat. If I change the nut to one with flat slots it will shorten the strings which might improve the intonation. Can I buy a nut already made that fits or do they have to be custom fitted to each guitar?

I am also wondering how high should the strings be above the fingerboard or first fret at the nut?

For some reason I always though this guitar was 650mm but it looks like it is 660mm.
I have smaller hands so I was thinking I would go for 650mm on my next guitar.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 16:55:49

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

Sounds like the nut is back to front to me. Turn the it around and then check the intonation. If it gets worse something is seriously wrong.

With those measurements it sounds like something went wrong in construction. My guitars would show for a 650mm 325mm from nut to the center of the 12th fret and then 326.5mm from the centre of the 12th fret to the area where the string breaks over the saddle.

Even with the 3.2mm saddle you will really struggle to get any compensation on the trebles. your best bet would be to make a back to front saddle with the peak at the back nearest the tie block. Make sure its 1mm higher than you need it to be for adjustment. Then check the intonation. With any luck it will be just right or even a little flat then you can move the peak towards the nut bit by bit until it's about right.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 19:10:19

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Sounds like the nut is back to front to me. Turn the it around and then check the intonation. If it gets worse something is seriously wrong.

With those measurements it sounds like something went wrong in construction. My guitars would show for a 650mm 325mm from nut to the center of the 12th fret and then 326.5mm from the centre of the 12th fret to the area where the string breaks over the saddle.

Even with the 3.2mm saddle you will really struggle to get any compensation on the trebles. your best bet would be to make a back to front saddle with the peak at the back nearest the tie block. Make sure its 1mm higher than you need it to be for adjustment. Then check the intonation. With any luck it will be just right or even a little flat then you can move the peak towards the nut bit by bit until it's about right.

How about replacing the nut with one that has flat slots? That would shorten the strings some maybe 2mm from the nut to the 12th fret. Also I noticed the nut is a bit narrow, only 4mm thick. I did some searching and 6mm seems to be more standard. Here is picture of mine. It does seem something is wrong and maybe why I got a good deal on it. It seems like a pretty nice guitar otherwise.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 20:02:20

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

That nut looks really strange

Maybe the builder tried to compensate at the nut...
Did you have any problems with intonation when you got it?
I cant see how a nut with flat slots is going to solve anything? You need longer strings, not shorter.(asuming thats its 660 tiro)
Or am I making a mistake?
If the guitar was more or less ok, maybe you dont want to touch it too much... or maybe let a pro have a look.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 20:32:53

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to koenie17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

That nut looks really strange
Maybe the builder tried to compensate at the nut...
Did you have any problems with intonation when you got it?
I cant see how a nut with flat slots is going to solve anything? You need longer strings, not shorter.(asuming thats its 660 tiro)
Or am I making a mistake?
If the guitar was more or less ok, maybe you dont want to touch it too much... or maybe let a pro have a look.

I never really checked the intonation much until now.
My understanding is that making the strings from the nut to 12th fret shorter will help because then they will be shorter relative to the length from the 12th fret to saddle, but then the distance to the first fret will change and might not be good? Taking it to a pro doesn't appeal to me, I like to work on my own stuff whether its a bicycle or guitar. I also plan to build a guitar someday and this is going be a good learning experience.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 20:52:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

Before doing anything else, change that nut!
Its easy to understand why your guitar doesnt tune well.
What is the distance (not string length) between start fingerboard to mid 12th fret?

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 21:10:45

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Looks like 326 mm.

I was wrong about scale length looks like 653mm from start of fingerboard.
Distance to first fret looks right 36.65 mm from start of fingerboard so with a correct nut it should be ok.

Guess I need to buy some nut files.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Before doing anything else, change that nut!
Its easy to understand why your guitar doesnt tune well.
What is the distance (not string length) between start fingerboard to mid 12th fret?

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2016 21:18:52

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Help me with my saddle (in reply to Cervantes)

Here is the new saddle and nut I made.
The strings are now the proper height and the intonation, tone and playability are all better.
I have tried many strings on this guitar and have settled on Savarez Cantiga's.
I learned a lot and will be able to use this when I build my first guitar.
Thanks to everyone who gave me helpful advise.